Ragnomania Polish and Transcript 

[00:00:00] Sean: Franz Liszt, the wildly popular 19th century composer for whom a whole new term had to be invented to describe the fanaticism of his fans, navigates life as an artist, trying to survive and have quite a lot of sex while being pursued by his sometimes friend and frequent nemesis, proto Nazi vampire Richard Wagner. Thor Odinson, the popular superhero discovers 

he has a long lost sister just before she takes over his home of Asgard and reveals its true history of colonialism and oppression. These are the protagonists of Ken Russell's 1975 musical biopic Lisztomania and Taika Waititi's 2017 sci-fi action, adventure, Thor: Ragnarok. What could these two films possibly have in common? 

That's what we're talking about. In this episode of the celluloid mirror. 

[00:01:07] Film clip: I mean, what do you think you think they stand a chance who you're on their side. Aren't you, who you betting on? Hmm,  

magic mirror on the  

wall.  

Who  

is the  

fairest? One of them look at these lies.  

One shall stand one shall  

fall. Even if one of  

them survives, the only way to stop is to make another movie. 

[00:01:45] Nicole: Welcome to the celluloid mirror. I am one of your hosts, Nicole Solomon, and  

[00:01:50] Sean: I am the other one of your hosts. Sean Manion on the celluloid mirror. We take two films and look at what they reflect about each other, the audience and our culture at large today, we're talking about Ken Russell's 1975, surreal musical biopic Lisztomania and Taika Waititi's 2017 superhero space, sequel, Thor: 

Ragnarok 

[00:02:14] Nicole: we will start by giving a brief synopsis of each film, discuss our responses to the films as well as critical responses to them. And then we will dive in on what the films say about one another. Yay. So, yay. So's we've been planning this episode for a long time.  

[00:02:33] Sean: This is actually this actually one of the  

first episodes we even talked about doing. 

[00:02:38] Nicole: Yeah. When we were first talking about doing this show at all, this was um, this was a possibility that came up pretty early on  

[00:02:46] Sean: and I think you hadn even seen Lisztomania at the point I mentioned it. I don't think  

[00:02:51] Nicole: I don't. I don't think I had cuz I did see, well, we'll talk about it more later when I saw Lisztomania for the first time, but yeah, it's it's it's it's been a journey  

[00:03:00] Sean: mm-hmm  

[00:03:01] Nicole: and if we're, if we're gonna take our listeners on the journey, it might help to 

tell them what these films are about. Don't you think? 

[00:03:09] Sean: I,  

I think that would be good. Uh, I, I can take Lisztomania if you want to do Thor Ragnarok,  

[00:03:16] Nicole: I would love to do Thor Ragnarok and everybody, sorry. Oh boy. I, yeah, I will give a synopsis of Thor, Ragnarok and, and you can give a spoileriffic synopsis of Lisztomania. Listeners, 

if you have not seen Lisztomania or Thor Ragnarok, we're gonna give away many plot points 

[00:03:36] Sean: Oh god, so many  

[00:03:37] Nicole: I don't, I don't know that Lisztomania is a movie that can be spoiled.  

[00:03:41] Sean: No, I, I think even if I tell you and it's gonna be hard to tell you exactly what happens The experiences is, is a unique experience on its own. 

I will say that it is currently on HBO max, as of the recording of this episode. And it had not been available on streaming except to like buy on iTunes, I think, or maybe buy on Amazon. But it had never been like available streaming until like right before we decided to do this episode or finally decided to do this episode. 

[00:04:11] Nicole: So we're clearly tapped into something.  

[00:04:13] Sean: It's something I think it's actually playing at if you're in New York and Brooklyn, I think it's actually playing at the Alamo in Brooklyn in the next month or so I may be after this episode comes, it may be before this episode comes out, it may not be available anymore, but it's getting around. 

[00:04:29] Nicole: So what happens in Lisztomania?  

[00:04:30] Sean: What happens in Lisztomania? 

[00:04:32] Nicole: Yeah, Lisztomania 

[00:04:33] Sean: To be honest, It's penises, mostly it's mostly penises. And I'm not  

really joking about that.  

[00:04:39] Nicole: There are also, there are some vaginas as well.  

[00:04:42] Sean: There  

there are, but it's a lot of penises. So if you know what, honestly, you know what that is, that is something that I would say might be a warning for people. 

If you're like, you know what? I don't need to see a lot of penises. You might wanna avoid this movie because it's, it's, it's, it's, it's everywhere.  

Um,  

[00:04:59] Nicole: I mean, although if you just don't wanna see realistic penises there aren't  

a  

lot of those,  

[00:05:04] Sean: there are  

definitely not a lot of those. It is very representational. 

When I say this, I'm not saying that there's like a lot of guys going around with penises out. I'm saying that there's a lot of columns, which are already very what's the word I'm looking for? Phallic that are  

[00:05:17] Nicole: A lot of columns? 

[00:05:19] Sean: Columns, columns.  

[00:05:21] Nicole: Okay.  

[00:05:21] Sean: Like columns that hold up the ceilings and buildings. 

Oh, did you not notice all the columns that are penises?  

[00:05:28] Nicole: No, I, you know what, that's an excellent point, but there are also non-column penises.  

[00:05:36] Sean: Yes.  

[00:05:36] Nicole: That are not realistic, just  

[00:05:38] Sean: That are not realistic also.  

[00:05:39] Nicole: I was think I was thinking of a different penis in particular, that happens.  

[00:05:42] Sean: You were thinking  

of the eight foot penis. 

[00:05:45] Nicole: is it  

only eight feet?  

[00:05:46] Sean: I think technically it is only eight feet. I remember reading because I think he's sitting on something else  

anyway. I should actually  

I had 12  

[00:05:53] Nicole: in  

my mind  

anyway. Yes, 

[00:05:55] Sean: I should. I, I should actually  

describe this because people are gonna be like, why, why, what, what is this eight foot penis?  

[00:06:00] Nicole: It's  

not a porn. 

[00:06:01] Sean: It is not a porn. Although knowing the youth these days, they're gonna say it is which just maybe sounds super old, but you know what? I'm not wrong. So uh, Lisztomania, it follows the career of the pianist Fran list. I know it's I pianist, he's a pianist and there's a lot of penises. God, I don't know how we're like, I think we're gonna get pulled for how  

many times I've said penis  

[00:06:26] Nicole: we are very mature. 

So I'm sure we're gonna be able to just put this in its artistic context and not make juvenile jokes. Probably not at cause look how great a job we're doing so far.  

[00:06:38] Sean: So he's pianist, Franz  

Liszt if you're not familiar with him, he was actually, and I'm not super familiar with him, honestly, beyond the movie, I've read a little bit about it, about him. 

He was wildly popular in the 19th century. Like the, the film's name list mania is actually based on the fact that they invented a term to describe the fervor for him when he would perform, he was like the original rockstar essentially. And that's how they treat him. And that's why he's played by Roger Daltry also cuz Ken Russell, the director already had a relationship with Roger Daltry and the who, because they just made Tommy. 

They actually came out the same year Lisztomania and Tommy came out the same year. And if you thought Tommy was weird, if you've seen Tommy and you're like, Tommy's kind of weird. I don't know about Tommy. Let me tell you. You have not seen weird until you've seen Lisztomania Uh, anyway, It follows him. And one of the things to understand about the film fundamentally is that everything in the film is just metaphor like visual metaphors everything is extremely heightened. 

Everything is intended to. Be a step removed from reality. It is a very, even though it's a biopic, it does not, it, it doesn't care about the literal events. It cares about uh, the meaning of events. It cares about the meaning of of relationships. And so all the sets are very stylized. All the character designs are very stylized. 

There is many characters and many side people are very caricaturized and sometimes in problematic ways. We'll talk about that. So it follows uh, his part of his career toward, and, and through to the end of his life. And it's it starts with showing how he ends up with the, with the woman who is the, the mother of, of several of his children. 

And uh, she was a, an, an upper class woman and he was essentially a servant. Who's teaching her how to be uh, how to, how to play piano and they slept together. And then uh, she ran off with him and that's the movie starts by showing that then the movie moves forward many years and shows him in performance halls in his popularity and introduces the antagonist of the film 

who is the, the composer Richard Wagner, who is portrayed in a very boyish. And he's a very clinger hanger on type in the beginning right before performance by list where list said, oh, I read some of your music. I'm going to play some of your music. Uh Wagner which ultimately kind of leads to a, a point of friction that is going to come between them. 

It's not exactly a rivalry, but when list decides to play some of Wagner's work, everybody  

kind of doesn't wanna listen to it, or nobody's really interested in what in,  

in, in that. And so he ends up going back to some of his standards. One of them being chopsticks, something that list did is he did a lot of variations on, on, on some things like chopsticks. 

So, and this is something that upsets Wagner, he doesn't like being teased and will ultimately kind of come back. Uh, Then we follow list through basically the, the upper classes because of his popularity, princesses, and and Czars and everybody all want him to be their sort of court pianist and to, you know, be popular in that way. 

Uh, And this leads him to Russia and uh, the prince princess who this is where there's so many of the penises her entire room. Is the columns are all penises. And then there is a sequence in which list has, and is riding an an eight foot, perhaps 10 or 12 feet.  

I'm not sure  

[00:10:30] Nicole: I'm voting 12, let us know, let us know how long you think. 

[00:10:33] Sean: I  

thought I'd read. I thought I had read something online at one point about the prop that it was an eight foot tall.  

[00:10:39] Nicole: Yes. And the entire reason I'm saying 12 feet is cuz I read somewhere on the internet, something about 12 foot penis.  

[00:10:45] Sean: Okay. And I might, I might just be missing the, the eight foot thing. 

So  

[00:10:48] Nicole: This was, I don't even remember where on the internet I read that's that  

[00:10:51] Sean: it's not really realistic  

looking. It's semi, you know, it's,  

[00:10:54] Nicole: it's  

more realistic than I remembered.  

[00:10:57] Sean: Yeah. Yeah. It's the semi.  

[00:10:58] Nicole: The veins  

and stuff.  

[00:10:59] Sean: It's got a big it's, it's a  

big veiny penis that he rides. Uh, And it's a very, it's a, it's a music. 

The film is musical. So there's this big musical sequence. And it's essentially a sequence about him uh, selling his, selling his artistic soul which ultimately leads to this princess who is somewhat depicted as the devil. She gets very kind of scary and it's got kind of a spider theme uh, web thing going to it. 

There's a lot of levels of stuff going on here.  

[00:11:29] Nicole: She's got those cool, like that, like wings, wingy things.  

[00:11:32] Sean: Exactly. Like,  

[00:11:33] Nicole: I really like that. I liked  

that  

[00:11:35] Sean: if it's not, if it's not clear, there's no way that I can do justice to synopsizing this movie guys. So I'm, I'm trying to give you the broad strokes. Uh, But then there's a guillotine, which is for his penis, which is. 

You know, is represented somewhat, that that is, that is a representation of his talent and his art is the penis which I think has a lot to do with just he was very sexual. He got around a lot. So he, Russell is making some connections there between those. So that's part of it. He ends up oh it, right before that it introduces his children with the woman from the beginning of the film, including one who ends up being very important to the rest of the film. 

One who we will talk about more throughout the episode, who is Cosima his daughter Cosima, who is somewhat resentful of her father's career. She ends up marrying a friend of his, which we see a little bit of lists encounters. Wagner again, later. And Wagner is one of the things with Wagner from the very beginning is he's always talking about, about how music is being sort of a vehicle for his revolution, his revolution of the people, which he's obsessed with. 

And then when he returns, this is part of it again as we mentioned in the cold open, he is a vampire at one point when, when, when, when list meets him again, he's actually like a literal vampire and drains some of the blood from list. We'll talk about what. Is about a little bit more later. He ends up being rejected by lists and when he and, and list is separate from the troubles that are going on and fighting that's happening, but Wagner then encounters his daughter. 

He encounters Cosima uh, with her husband and a child. And they have a connection which becomes important. Later list ends up ends up joining the church and there we meet the church being the Catholic church. Uh, There we meet the Pope who is played by Ringo Starr. The Pope ultimately tells list that he is, that he has been tainted because of his association with Wagner because Wagner is now married to his daughter. 

And that that Wagner is, is essentially he's. The antichrist is what is what this Ringo star of the Pope says. And he says that list has to go and stop him. And then it gets, and then the weird movie gets starts to get even weirder because it basically turns into a hammer horror film where list goes to this small village. 

And everybody goes scattering when he mentions Wagner and Wagner is dressed very flamboyantly in a castle. And he has built a. Uh, And, and we see some imagery uh, some very some, some Nazi propaganda type imagery, Nazis proto Nazis there. The uh, there's a whole sort of group of children being led by Cosima they're all wearing sort of Superman, like outfits with big, fancy Ws on them for Wagner and and list sees what Wagner's been working on. 

And Wagner has been working on a his, his, his Superman, essentially his, I think I, I can't, I don't think they actually call it like the Uber mention it, but that's what what it's in reference to. And it is basically it is a stupid robot Thor, and the, the stupid robot Thor ends up ends up dying. 

Wagner ends up dying, but not for long because he is soon resurrected by Cosima as a sort of Frankenstein Hitler with a with a electric guitar machine gun. By this point list has all has died, but but Wagner is out in the streets killing. Everybody particularly caricatures of Jewish people with his,  

[00:15:32] Nicole: And I think that's all  

he's, he's  

only killing Jewish people 

[00:15:34] Sean: I think, I think it's only that. Yeah,  

[00:15:35] Nicole: he it's, he just, he just goes to the Jewish area of town and,  

[00:15:38] Sean: and starts mowing them down with his, with his machine gun, his electric guitar machine gun followed by his Wagner super children and from heaven or at least the sky list and all the women, he loved including a version of Cosima look down on it and say, well, we've gotta do something about that. 

And so they all, and they're all playing music and singing a song and it's very hippy-ish. And so they all climb into a rocket ship powered by love. Essentially, they, they all climb into a love rocket ship in heaven and then fly the love rocket down to fight. I, I am not making this up. I not exaggerating. 

I am trying to keep this as simple as possible.  

[00:16:29] Nicole: You're doing great  

[00:16:30] Sean: I'm missing a lot.  

[00:16:30] Nicole: You're doing great stuff. 

[00:16:31] Sean: I'm missing a lot of stuff.  

[00:16:32] Nicole: You're almost there.  

[00:16:33] Sean: And so they fly the love rocket ship. Or the love powered rocket ship, excuse me. And they, and they fire rainbow lasers at Franken Hitler and his electric guitar machine gun. 

And they destroy Franken Hitler in his electric guitar machine gun. And then list sings a song basically about love, winning love, triumph thing. And that's the movie. 

[00:17:01] Nicole: [claps] 

[00:17:03] Sean: And I left  

out a lot of stuff. I might have even gotten some stuff in the wrong order, but it's, it's, it's a, it's an experience, not a plot.  

[00:17:14] Nicole: Yeah. My understanding is that reportedly this script was 57 pages long,  

[00:17:20] Sean: Which  

is, you know, obviously all you need need to make perfection. So  

[00:17:26] Nicole: there's a lot listeners when you watch this movie, cuz you should watch this movie. 

There's a lot where you can see how like this 10 minute long scene was probably three sentences.  

[00:17:38] Sean: Yeah. I mean it's a musical  

[00:17:40] Nicole: Guy rides the giant penis around and they all like climb on it and then the guillotine, that's all you really need to say that scene goes on a while as it should. Yes. As it should. 

[00:17:50] Sean: I mean,  

it's musical. You gotta have like longer musical numbers. Oh, I forgot right before that it is Oliver Reed. So Ken Russell, you know, he did the, he did the devils and he, Oliver Reid has a little role as a, I believe, as a cossack. Yeah, right before right before list gets knocked out with some gas. As I recall the holes where the gas, where the gas that knocks them out comes from those are the vaginas. 

If I recall,  

right?  

[00:18:14] Nicole: No, the gas was mostly coming outta butts as I recall  

[00:18:17] Sean: oh, you're right. The gas was butts. The gas was butts because that was that's the joke,  

[00:18:21] Nicole: But list, but list. But like Carolyn at some point is in like a giant vagina or like a giant, not, not, no, actually I should, maybe she's partially in a vagina. 

She's mostly in some labia.  

[00:18:32] Sean: Yes.  

[00:18:32] Nicole: And list pursues her into a giant, there's a scene where a list is going through a, what's obviously a very large vagina.  

[00:18:40] Sean: Yes, yes. 

Like tunnel. Yeah.  

Yes.  

Is. So what we're saying, audience is, this is an amazing film.  

This is incredible, incredible.  

[00:18:51] Nicole: There's nothing like it.  

[00:18:52] Sean: You have not seen film until you have seen Lisztomania ,  

[00:18:56] Nicole: it's actually, it's a very interesting companion piece to the devils. 

[00:19:01] Sean: Yeah. 

[00:19:01] Nicole: Um, In terms of like takes on the Catholic church, it was super cause I, I re-watched the devils even in the past couple months. So it, I, I do recommend looking at those two film. Together as, as, as well, but it's a lot more bat shit than the devils. 

[00:19:16] Sean: Oh yeah.  

I mean, Ken Russell's whole like seventies output his I mean, we can talk more about this later, but his whole seventies output and all the cuz he did like a, basically a series of about composers and then he also did the devils and he also did in the seventies he did Tommy, basically it was either about art or religion or art and religion in all of them. 

And there's a through line through all of it, which honestly I think he probably doesn't get enough credit, the unified sort of thing that he was exploring throughout that era, especially cuz a lot of the films are harder to access because they are not you know, they should be talked about alongside a lot of the films that we talk about. 

The other films that we talk about from the seventies, you know, the Scorsese films and the Spielberg films and all that like absolutely as you know, they're really impressive works anyway, which is and, and re  

yeah, go ahead.  

[00:20:13] Nicole: I was just gonna say relatedly um, the devils, as of it are recording, at least is still on Shudder 

and if you haven't seen that. And unless you're like, 

[00:20:22] Sean: you gotta see the Devils,  

[00:20:23] Nicole: Unless you're someone who's like, I, I really don't need to see that movie. That's fine. I understand that it's an upsetting movie, but that is a very hard to find movie and Shudder periodically puts it up there. And so while it's up there highly, highly recommend, I am eternally mad at the unavailability of that movie. 

It makes me very angry. 

[00:20:44] Sean: It's bullshit. 

[00:20:45] Nicole: It's bullshit. And you know, what might not be bullshit is my synopsis of Thor Ragnarok.  

[00:20:50] Sean: No, that wouldn't be  

bullshit. Tell us what happens in th  

Ragnarok,  

[00:20:54] Nicole: let's see, in Thor Ragnarok. Um, I mean there's some context, which is the previous two Thor movies, as well as all the other MCU movies. 

But we'll just forget about that. Who cares? One of the things, one of the things I like about Ragnarok is there is context, but you also really don't need it. You could just come into this and it's a self-contained story and they tell you enough to understand the context without having to have seen 20 other movies, which is pretty cool. 

So it starts with Thor being imprisoned by this fire. Demonn I think his name was like suture  

[00:21:28] Sean: Surtur  

he is he  

He is a fire giant.  

[00:21:33] Nicole: so Surtur is a fire giant who has Thor in a cage and is going on and on about how he is going to bring on Ragnarok, which is the destruc- destruction of Thor's home planet of Asgard. 

And he also drops this like important note, which is that the throne is currently undefended on Asgard. There's nobody there to protect it. And Thor's like, well, what about my dad Odin? And he he's like, dude, Odin's not there. And Thor's long. Odin's not there. This will be important later. And you know, Thor's like, whatever, I can beat things up. 

It seems like if I beat you up and steal your crown, you can't bring on Ragnarok. So that's what I'm gonna do before you initiate Ragnarok. Cuz once you do that, you're gonna be like 10 times as giant. That's part of it. Mm-hmm is this already pretty giant fire Demonn is going to get much more giant and powerful. 

Once it's crown is reunited with the eternal flame, which is being held on Asgard as part of their collection of colonial spoils. Perhaps you could call it  

[00:22:39] Sean: and, and if I may interject for a moment, it's a really missed opportunity that they didn't use the song eternal flame in the movie.  

[00:22:48] Nicole: It was a missed opportunity. 

I agree to not use eternal flame in ThorRagnarok. I do love that song. Um, I will not go on a digression about it, cuz I could say a lot, but so point being Thor takes the crown and heads back to Asgard. Um, When he gets back to Asgard, he finds out that Heimdell. Is that how you pronounce his name?  

[00:23:10] Sean: Yeah, Heimdall  

[00:23:10] Nicole: Heimdall, Idris Elba, he's he's gone. 

And Odin appears to be there, but Thor pretty quickly puts together that it's actually his mischievous brother, Loki posing as Odin in a very funny scene where we see a play that is the mythologized ver Asgardian version of events of previous movies, basically telling the story of how Loki saved Asgard 

it's this very like pro Loki Loki as a hero. There's a giant statue of Loki now mm-hmm et cetera. And Thor's like this isn't oh, and this is Loki. And does the thing where he throws his hammer and his hammer has to come right back to him. So he throws his hammer really far and then puts Loki in front of him. 

So the Hammer's gonna go through Loki and kill him unless he is like, okay, I admit I'm Loki and changes back into Loki. And so Loki has been exposed and says he left Odin in New York city. So Thor and Loki take the Bi frost. I believe they call it  

[00:24:10] Sean: is the bifrost. Yes.  

[00:24:11] Nicole: The bifrost, which is their way they can, you know, travel other places real fucking fast. 

Basically we'll leave it at that for now. And so they go to New York and Dr. Strange is there and takes them to his house. And they have some conversations and stuff. And I believe Dr. Strange is the one who tells them, oh, you know, Odin's in Norway, mm-hmm and they have a whole talk about Loki and how Loki's, you know, an issue, whatever, et cetera, they end up going to Norway. 

They see Odin, Odin talks to them a little bit says some things I'm trying to remember the exact quote of what he says to them about the importance of Asgard, not being as a physical location. Mm-hmm but as a people, those weren't his exact words, but something along those lines, and then he dies. 

Mm-hmm he dies and kind of evaporates into some, some dust. And you know, Thorin lowkey don't have that much time to stay in their feelings about it because suddenly who shows up, but Hela who is Thor's long lost sister played by the wonderful Cate Blanchett, wonderful Cate Blanchett, the wonderful Cate Blanchett in a very cool outfit with very good costume design. 

Mm-hmm . It's all good. And she is like, guess what? Now that Odin's dead, I can come back and reclaim my rightful role as ruler of Asgard, cuz as it turns out Hela and her dad conquered the nine realms together. So nine different worlds, they went out and conquered and colonized basically for Asgard. And that's how Asgard got all their wealth. 

That's how Asgard got all their power once they had that level of, you know, control and maybe not all, but they, yeah, I'm sure there was some magical stuff predating that or whatever. But like once they had all that, then Odin started kind of moving more into diplomacy and more peaceful resolutions to conflict and stuff. 

Cuz fuck, he's already got nine realms worth of treasure and shit. Like he can afford to be a little more liberal. Yeah. At this point and his time. Hello got banished. Cuz hell wasn't part of that. Hello was like, no, we gotta keep conquering worlds. Like we're really great at world conquering. Why would we stop now? 

Like, you know, there's so many more, there's so many more. And so now that Odin's gone, she shows up, she's like, I'm this is, this is what's up now. And so lowkey and Thor, try to get back to Asgard. They're all in the by frost, which looks pretty cool. Honestly, it's like this rainbow tunnel. I like the way it looks. 

There's better CGI in this film. Maybe any other Marvel film, in my opinion, most of it looks good. Mm-hmm and that's cool. And so they have this like cool fight in the, by frost. And what ends up happening is Helen ends up making her way back to Asgard while Loki and Thor are spun off to this other world called Sakaar, which is the place for all lost and unloved things. 

Basically it's like the scrap heap of the universe or the multiverse or what the fuck ever. And they, they, they part ways with each other, they split off at different times. Thor suddenly here we are act two THS on Sakaar, and there's a bunch of people who are trying to entrap him for God knows what means, but then this cool ship shows up and on that cool ship is Tessa Thompson as scrapper 1 42. 

And she's like, he's mine. You get the sense that she is like, you know, a good fighter and has some sort of favored position here in this world. She's like, no, no, no, fuck all y'all and she basically mows them all down with this cool, like Mecha gun thing. It's not a Mecha  

[00:28:10] Sean: drunk the whole time.  

[00:28:12] Nicole: yeah. 

And she's drunk the whole time. She's we, we learned that she is, you know, a raging alcoholic. She steps off her ship and it's like, he's mine in this really impressive way. And then drunkenly literally like falls off the bridge and it's it's good. Physical comedy it's good stuff. So she puts this like kind of disc on Thor's neck. 

Mm-hmm that allows her to control him. And she takes him. She takes him somewhere. And when he next wakes up, he's on this weirdo, like tour guide thing, where he is strapped into a chair that is moving through a hallway where visuals are being projected, talking about what Sakaar is and how you know, Sakaar is this world. 

And the original person who came here was the grand master. And now he runs everything and he has put together this wonderful contest that can give your life meaning, cuz if you're here on car, basically your garbage, but now you can be part of the grand masters, like gladiatorish entertainment, basically. 

Mm-hmm yay. Thor's like, fuck this obviously, but he oh, I forgot to mention Hela smashed his hammer. Right, right when they had their little fight before. So, and this is, this is, this is key he's without his hammer for the whole rest of the fucking movie, he has no hammer. He has this weird control thing in his neck. 

He sees the grand master who was played by Jeff Goldbloom, basically like disintegrate this guy, he was pissed off at right next to him. Like it's a kind of wizard of Oz-y situation of this guy doesn't seem all that super powerful, but because he was the first one to show up in this space and kind of like learn the ropes and build the whole thing to serve him. 

He is, he is like the top dog anyway, you know, and is able to make all these other more powerful people, aliens, creatures, et cetera, do his bidding, which is an interesting depiction of ways that power can work. And Loki's there. Thor runs into Loki. Loki's there. He's getting along better with the grand master than Thor is. 

Thor ends up being pushed into the contest of champions, which is the grand master's big, super violent gladiator contest that people watch for entertainment and bed on. And the big celebrities on Sakaar are like the champions from the contest of champions and who is Thor put up against. But the incredible Hulk turns out that after the events of um, Age of Altron Avengers, age of Ultron, which I barely remember. 

After that  

[00:30:46] Sean: it's not worth remembering.  

[00:30:48] Nicole: It's not worth remembering. Hulk ended up here. That's all that matters. And he's apparently been the Hulk for years. He has not switched back to Bruce banner. He's just been in his raging out Hulk phase four years, like recognizes Thor would agree, but is not interacting with him as if they are friends or coworkers, but is just Hulk smash basically. 

And they have this whole fight at a certain point. It appears that Thor's actually gonna win. But then the grand master makes the disc on his neck, do the thing that makes him like get paralyzed and go on the ground. So Hulk is able to smash. And even though clearly the contest was rigged, technically the Hulk's the winner and Thor's not. 

And we learned more on Sakaar for a while. We find out scrapper 1 42 was a valry, which was this elite fighting force on Asguard. Who was the valry were almost all killed during the last big blowout with Odin and hello, where they were having their power squabbles over, who was gonna run Asgard. 

And lots of Asgardians died, making hell not be the ruler of Asgard. Including apparently valry Tessa Thompson's. Girlfriend who we see in a flashback at a certain point. It's not really explained, but she makes a reference to how she only survived because mm-hmm . And then we see in flashback later on Hela coming at her and this other woman kind of getting in the way and, and dying and Tessa Thompson's character, you know? 

Yeah. Being very distraught. So clearly this was a person who was important to her. We know from outside of the film information, that that was a romantic interest, but, you know for the Chinese market or whatever, we can pretend they were just good friends. Sean and I were talking a little about queer representation and Marvel before we started recording. 

We can talk about it more later, so that all happens. There's also this guy cog, who's a rock monster. Played by uh, Taika Waititi who's around and kind of talking about trying to fo foment some kind of uprising amongst the oppressed mm-hmm of Sakaar. He's tried. He says, he's tried to start a revolution before, but it failed cuz he didn't have enough pamphlets, blah, blah, blah, blah. 

At a certain point, it does all the plot machinations don't particularly matter for purposes of this recap, but eventually Thor and Hulk are able to, you know, communicate Hulk turns back into banner. They decide that they are going to try to escape ska and go back to Asgard in order to protect it from Hela takes Thor a while to get everybody on board people aren't super into it, but eventually the Avengers as he calls them form of valry and Hulk and him, depending on which scene it is, maybe Loki, maybe not. 

There's a lot of back and forth with that. They end up escaping through this weird wormhole that is called the devil's anus in a ship that they commander it is a party ship belonging to the grand master. Um, They manage to escape. They also give some weapons to Korg, basically being like, Hey, why don't you have a revolution cuz that's gonna help us escape, honestly. 

So they do that. They go to Asgard. Meanwhile, I haven't even talked about what's going on back on Asgard. It's a mess Hela shows up kills a bunch of um, Heimdall is busy trying to get refugees hidden out in the woods in these structures. Most of the warriors are just getting killed by Hela scourge. 

Who operates the Bifrost played by Karl Urban is an early convert to Hela not because she believe he believes in her or anything like that, but just because he sees that he's likely gonna get killed otherwise. So he becomes kind of her right hand, man. They're trying to like shore up support on Asgard. 

There is none, none of the, Asgardians want anything to do with Hela, but she does this thing that makes it kind of hard to say no of she resurrects a zombie army of all these dead soldiers who are buried underneath the palace, whatever it's called on Asgard. She also resurrects her giant pet Wolf from the past mm-hmm so she's got a pretty strong. 

Force to be reckoned with here. We'll talk about this scene more later, as it's kind of key to some of the themes we wanna discuss, but there's a great scene where Hela takes scourge into the palace. There's actually a clip from this scene at the beginning of every episode of our show where Cate Blanchett says, look at these lies. 

And if we were to play more of the clip, she would elaborate about how all of the art in Asgard representing itself, right? All of the paintings and murals and ceilings and everything depicting great events in Asgard history are only showing like garden parties and diplomatic meetings and handshakes and all sorts of stuff like that, but Hela smashes the ceiling and it all falls down. 

And then we see all this other art underneath that has been literally painted over because it's not convenient to the current Asgard, self view of what used to be the legacy of Asguard, which was one of colonization and death and imperialism and all, all of that. That's what Asguard used to celebrate as being their great story. 

But then that was became inconvenient to the self image. So much as Hela herself was banished. They also banished that history and wrote over it with like a new friendlier sunnier happier history. Anyway, the Revengers come back to Asgard fighting Hela is not gonna happen. Hela gets more power from Asgard. 

So she's only getting stronger and stronger. They have a ship now. So they're able, they're like, oh, another ship comes cuz then Loki and Korg and a bunch of other people from Sakaar also show up. So they've got a bigger ship they're trying to evacuate Asgardians into the ship. They're just fighting Hela to kind of hold her off while they do that. 

They're no longer trying to really defeat her. They don't think that is possible. It starts to feel impossible that they could even hold her off long enough to get everybody out. So then Thor has the radical idea that maybe this entire journey wasn't actually about preventing Ragnarok. Maybe it was actually about making Ragnarok happen. 

And maybe in order to save these people Asgard itself and all of its horrific history that is rising from the dead to consume it, literally right now, just all needs to be destroyed in order for anyone to move forward. So Loki goes and intentionally moves that aforementioned crown into the eternal flame, bringing back the big fire monster guy. 

Who's now way bigger. He and he and Hela start fighting that allows everybody else to escape and they escape to become a diasporic people. Mm-hmm no longer tied to a nation because as, as Thor says, Asgard, isn't a place. It's a people. So the, Asgardians fly off into space to have the shitty events of the next movies happen, mm-hmm but that's the Ragnarok. 

[00:38:25] Sean: Yay. Good  

synopsisisizing  

[00:38:32] Nicole: Thank you. Thank  

you.  

So what...  

[00:38:35] Sean: Do you wanna know what these movies have in common? Nicole,  

[00:38:38] Nicole: Tell me, 

[00:38:38] Sean: I can tell you  

They  

[00:38:38] Nicole: sound pretty different. Tell me what Thor Ragnarok and Lisztomania,  

[00:38:41] Sean: They sound different but what they have in common is that both films feature the character of Thor. Uh, As we mentioned playing key roles within imperialism and fascism within Lisztomania or with Lisztomania is primarily preoccupied with fascist origins and Ragnarok is focused on the aftermath of imperialist, colonialism as well. 

Comes next both films, especially focus on the mythology, used to build and maintain the oppressive power with an interest in the role of Norse mythology in particular. So they both interfacing with Norse mythology. Uh Lisztomania is really all about in a lot of ways, all about like the construction of a fascist the fascist nation while tho Ragnarok is, is fundamentally about like the, yeah, the aftermath of imperialism colonialism. 

And  

uh,  

I, I, I don't wanna say the rehabilitation of that, but the, the end of an Imperial society and moving forward from that. So, so there's two ends of it. It's two ends of not exactly the same thing, but two bad things. So  

[00:39:57] Nicole: Plus Thor,  

[00:39:58] Sean: Plus Thor, lots of Thor  

[00:39:59] Nicole: Bad, the two bad things and Thor  

[00:40:01] Sean: And just north mythology sort of in general plays comes into play. 

[00:40:06] Nicole: So, what did, when did you first see these  

films?  

[00:40:08] Sean: Rag, Ragnarok. I saw probably opening weekend. I usually, or, or close to, like second week it came out. I see a lot of the Marvel movies when they come out, cuz they're fun to see in the theater. Uh, This one looked particularly fun. They were gonna have the Hulk in it and all that stuff and they were advertising it using led Zeppelin. 

So how am I not gonna go see that? I've seen it many times since it is definitely one of my favorite Marvel movies. If not my favorite, I don't know. I, I probably need to think about that more, but it's definitely one of the better ones that they've made. It's actually about like something sort of broader in an interesting way. 

And yeah, so I saw it back in 2017 when it first came out, uh Lisztomania is another one of those films that is like half the films that we've done almost this season or at least half the episodes. This is the story is my buddy. David was like, Hey, let's watch this movie, Lisztomania. Uh, And I said, what was it about? 

[00:41:10] Nicole: And he says, oh, it's supposed to be this weird Ken Russell, like musical thing. So we watched it and I was like, the fuck is this movie. This is the greatest thing. And I've watched it many, many times since then. Many times since then, it's probably, well, maybe not many it's five or six or times, at least since then. 

And it is a movie that because of the way it caricature arises a lot of groups I try to be a little hesitant about recommending it to people because it's one of those ones where it's like, where it's like, I don't know that I want somebody to come back to me and go, like, why did you like this movie other than like the obvious, like, there was a lot of dicks in that movie. 

Why did you like this movie? That's fine. The, it is just got some questionable caricatures in, it is one where I'm like, eh, like that's not, not, everybody's gonna want to interface with that. So I try to be careful about that. But I really, really love what it's doing overall. I, I think I find the themes and sort of what it's exploring. 

[00:42:20] Sean: Very interesting. Uh,  

I tend to be really down on biopics, particularly music biopics of musicians. I mean, mostly like modern musicians I'm down on that, cuz those usually suck. Uh, But biopics are a thorny genre. Like a lot of them are just like let's cram this person's whole life into an hour and a half or two hours or most of their life into this. 

And it's just kind of clumsy most of the time. They didn't really do that. They got very like I appreciate that. It's mostly just sort of representational. It's mostly metaphorical. It's not concerned with literal history. It's concerned with more of the impact of events and relationships than it is like this is what actually happened. 

And we'll talk more about that. And I think that's really genius about the movie is that it's just like there are threads and there are connections and there are things that are very, very important in what we are talking about in this movie that if we were to just depict it, literally -- meh, like you might like it might be there. 

But it stretches. And I think I, I think that it is, it is a movie that, that many people should see. I don't know about all people, but many people should see cuz I think there's a lot, it's, it's a dense text. And there's a lot of dick in it, so  

[00:43:51] Nicole: Yeah, , there is it, it, it reminds me a little bit of, I'm not there that Todd Haynes, is it a biopic? 

Is it not of Bob Dylan? Which similarly doesn't portray events that actually happened, but rather is stuff that is representative of the, and, and it's it's figurative rather than than literal in a similar way as Lisztomania. So that was a, that was a connection I thought of, but yeah, I agree. I, I perf I tend to prefer. 

Approaches to biopics that are, are like this, or I'm not there rather than being like, I'm gonna try to just this happened, then this happened, then this happened mm-hmm or like flashback structure or whatever fucking thing it is trying to actually tell you someone's whole life. I prefer the less straightforward approaches. 

[00:44:39] Sean: Yeah. And at that point, the only music biopic you need to see is Walk Hard, the Dewey Cox Story, which just makes, which is just a comedy making fun of all of them, but it covers the ground. Like it's, you know, you're like, okay, I, now I know how all of these movies work.  

[00:44:55] Nicole: Um, So should I talk about  

when I saw  

[00:44:58] Sean: talk about you, your, your experience, sorry. 

Yeah,  

[00:45:00] Nicole: My experience, my journey uh, I saw Lisztomania for the first time, a few years ago with, with Sean, Sean was like, Hey, Lisztomania is playing. You guys want to go see it? And my, my husband also named Shawn, for those of you who have been confused about that on the podcast, I often realized that could be extremely confusing. 

Cause I'm talking about two different Sean/Shawn's. But so the Shawn/Seans and I, and Jess went too?  

[00:45:25] Sean: Yeah. And Jess came too yeah.  

And, and Sean's wife, Jess, all, all went and saw Lisztomania and I thought it was super interesting was very glad I saw it, enjoyed it a lot. This was my second time watching it for the show and it held up for me. 

[00:45:41] Nicole: I, I still like it a lot. Thor Ragnarok. I'm not the Marvel fan that Sean Manion is, but this was a film I was aware of and more eager to see than most Marvel movies. Although it was before I really got burnt out on them, but I was like, oh, Tyco, wat he did what we do in the shadows. I wanna see his take, this looks colorful and fun. 

And I saw it and I thought it was fucking great. Like I love Thor, Ragnarok. I still love Thor Ragnarok. It is my favorite Marvel movie. It is probably my favorite superhero movie. I cannot think of a single superhero movie that I like more than Thor, Ragnarok as for me where I'm sitting, it's the height of the genre, like and it was all downhill from there except for Black Panther. 

Uh, Black Panther is the only other Marvel movie besides Thor Ragnarok that I've watched multiple times, but I've watched Ragnarok more than Black Panther cuz Ragnarok's a movie. I'll just put it on. It's kind of good to like, like you can watch the first act. And not the rest of it and it's enjoyable. 

So I, yeah, I, I liked it a lot in the theaters. I thought it was a good time, good time at the movies. Then when it came out on streaming, it was on Netflix for a while. And I watched a couple times there eventually I bought, bought the blue Ray, cuz I'm like, I don't want to have to trust that this borrow Disney plus account is gonna be here forever. 

Plus you never know when Disney plus is just gonna change a movie on you in one way or another mm-hmm so yeah, I've, I've, I've seen it a lot. I will continue to watch it a lot. And that is my experience with those those films. What, what kinds of experiences did cri- did critics have in these  

films? 

[00:47:23] Sean: Well, from the New York times, we have Richard Eder reviewing Lisztomania and, and this, this Richard again Dick's showing up in relationship to Lisztomania uh, manic and extremely funny, then it relapses into a noisy bit of pretentiousness in the manner of its predecessor, Tommy full of flashing light, satin, spacesuits, Chrome, blue sight furniture, and mock agony. 

I feel like Richard Eder was like, oh, I thought  

this was supposed to be a fun movie. I'm just like I mean, yes, But also like, even from the beginning there's there's threads of commentary throughout the film. So  

[00:48:07] Nicole: Certainly they're setting it up from the beginning. Oh, where it's going the like  

[00:48:12] Sean: As soon  

As Wagner is introduced. 

[00:48:14] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. He's literally by being antisemitic in a way where he's also telling on himself. Yeah. Like he's basically accusing some Jewish guy of being cheap when he's actually being cheap himself, which was an interesting way to introduce the character. He's just antisemitic right off the bat, but also blaming shit on Jews. 

That's actually his own  

shit, which is, yeah.  

I mean, which is an accurate depiction of a piece of antisemitism, for sure.  

[00:48:45] Sean: Yeah. And even if you're not necessarily interfacing with that part of it, like early on, not the first scene, but like when he's with his wife, after the concert scene, there's a very explicit conversation about how she was high. 

If she was from higher society you know, she was, and, and he was low class. He was a servant and she ran and they like, they talk you know, they talk about that they, this, this, this class system that affected them. And affected their relationship and is why they're actually not married. They're just, they live in sin. 

But you know, so those things are there throughout uh, also in the New York times we've got uh, Manola Dragus uh, reviewing Thor, Ragnarok, who says through no fault of their likable star, Chris Hemsworth, the Thor movies have been largely forgettable memorable, mostly for up staging antics of his brother, th of, of his brother Loki played by Tom Hiddleston and as a bad fit for Natalie Portman, Thor's former love interest. 

Now, mercifully banished into the storytelling cornfield Ragnarok tries hard to change that profile and mostly succeeds by knocking its big blonde beauty consistently down to size. It makes sense for all sorts of reasons, including that superheroes can so easily appear to be on the wrong side of history, especially those who look like Arian and cartoons. 

I thought that was an interesting little clip from that because that's very relevant to what we were gonna be talking about.  

[00:50:16] Nicole: Oh yes, it is. Yes it is. I mean, cuz part of what I like about Ragnarok is look, I've never gotten all the way through Thor, the dark world, even though I have a Blueray of it in my house, I did not pay for this Blueray  

[00:50:28] Sean: it's  

not a great movie. 

[00:50:29] Nicole: It's actually gifted. It was gifted to me by friend of the show, former guest returning champion. Che Broadnax had a copy that he also did not pay for mm-hmm and he's like, why don't you just take this? If I was like, great. And then I tried to watch it. And I was like, I can't watch this shit.  

[00:50:45] Sean: It's not a good movie,  

[00:50:46] Nicole: But I'm interested in it. 

I meant to re-watch it before this podcast, but was like, I don't wanna watch Thor the dark world, but I thought it would be instructive as to the way that this one is largely considered to be like a real, like course corrector. Mm-hmm with the Thor films. I like the first Thor film it's actually, I like it more than most Marvel movies. 

I don't think it's a great film. I think there are some real bad things about it. Yeah. But I enjoy it as dude wears my hammer or whatever. It's fun. I like Chris Hemsworth. I have liked Chris Hemsworth since he was in cabin in the woods. That was the first thing I saw and yeah. And then when he was playing Thor, I was like, oh, that's the guy from cabin in the woods. 

Oh, he's funny. He's still funny. I think he's great. He's my favorite, Chris. But yeah, but anyway, point being the comment about, you know, looking like an Aryan cartoon and my understanding is there's some problematic stuff in Thor the dark world as they fight the dark elves or whatever. And the functioning of the dark elves is as this kind of uh, some racialized other mm. 

that when we get into talking more about antisemitism as an ideology later, I had a theory where I was like, I bet I can talk about how the dark elves are are anti-Semitic, but then I didn't watch the fucking movie. So I can't really make an argument about anti-Semitism and the dark elves, but I can make an argument about antisemitism more generally mm-hmm and a lot of stories, whether they're superhero or otherwise about great leaders and things where there are racialized others that need to be battled in order to whatever, some Aryan people, you know, like criticisms people have made of the Lord of the rings movies, for example, or mm-hmm, , there's some related stuff going on in Harry Potter and related stuff going on in tons of similar fantasy things that really gets kind of, they fix it in Ragnarok cause they delve into it and they're like, yeah, Asgard actually was this, like I is an imperialist power, the wealth was built through colonization and you know, it's not as simple as I would imagine. 

This changes, Ragnarok changes a little bit, the events of the dark world and the relationship between the dark elves and Asgardians in general, mm-hmm into something a little bit more complicated. And that's cool. Mm-hmm and. Yeah, we can, we're gonna talk about, talk more about that mythology and iconography, and specifically the role of Thor as a potential Aryan figurehead in both of these films. 

Whereas like in Lisztomania you've got robot Thor, and he is bill is Thor in the credits. Mm-hmm like, he is clearly supposed to be Thor. They make a crack about how he looks like a character out of a comic book. So he's not even Norse mythology Thor.  

[00:53:50] Sean: No, his  

costume is exactly outta the comic book without a Cape. 

[00:53:54] Nicole: So yeah, he is comic book Thor who Wagner is trying to animate into the Uber mensch. Who's going to help foment white supremacist nationalism in Germany in order to save it in by his own extremely racist logic. And then in Ragnarok, you've got Thor who could be the figurehead of that, but rejects it mm-hmm and instead takes this much more radical path undermining his own colonial legacy. 

Yeah.  

[00:54:22] Sean: Yeah.  

[00:54:24] Nicole: Which is cool.  

[00:54:25] Sean: And it is, it is very cool. Did, did, did you see what Ebert and ebert.com said about these movies?  

[00:54:32] Nicole: I sure did. And I was very taken by what Ebert said about Lisztomania because he gave it three stars, which is very cool. He, yes. Notoriously gave the devils either like one star or zero stars. 

[00:54:45] Sean: Yeah. I could see him not liking that movie.  

[00:54:47] Nicole: I can share his devil's review in the show notes, cuz I love it so much. It's super bitchy and I love the devils. Like mm-hmm I, I love the devils Ebert hates the devils, but he's one of the people who I have time for his devil's hatred, because he's so funny about it. 

So like it's actually a well written review, but so I was a little surprised when he liked Lisztomania so much, cuz I'd read a few reviews where he just shits on Ken Russell. Yeah. But in this one he said, Ken Russell's Lisztomania has little, if anything to do with the life and music of Fran's list or a Wagner Beethoven Chopan and the other unfortunates it tramples on the way to its manic conclusion? 

No, this isn't a biography. Not even in the sense that Russell ravaged poor Tchaikovsky in the music lovers. It's a berserk exercise of demented genius. And on that level, I want to make my praise explicit it functions and sometimes even works. Most people will probably despise it. Mm-hmm it fun? I think that it is such a funny positive review and it's just on that level. 

It functions and sometimes even works is as an  

[00:55:56] Sean: exercise of demented genius. Yeah.  

[00:55:59] Nicole: I think he's not wrong.  

[00:56:02] Sean: Yeah. I mean, I think that's the, the, I think the thing that I, and I think he's kind of touching on it really love about Lisztomania is because. in a lot of ways it's doing what film can do. And we rarely try to do, which is saying that when we make a film, we are very much working within the the dream space, psychological space, relational you know, psychological relationships between things like that's how film works. 

And, you know, we use that for the most part to do like over the shoulder shots and like conversations where you cut between different sides of people and they, they can create relationships between those, like how film works. What, what is truly, I think, genius about Lisztomania and still Tommy, but to a lesser degree is that Ken Russell was just like, this is, this is this, there is, this is a narrative, there's a narrative thread. 

There's a beginning, middle and end. It is, you could put the three act structure across this it'll fit. I'm sure I didn't try, but you could. But then he said like, okay, there's gonna be clear characters. There's gonna be clear dialogue. And, but this is going to be. Figurative, this is going to be like a nightmare like a dream it's dream space. 

And that's what, and as he's just like, we're just gonna work in that figurative psychological space where honestly, like, I don't know if the description that I gave the synopsis that I gave the film makes any sense as a story, because honestly, like it's a film that just kind of flows from one piece to the next and from one sort of situation to the next and tells you who characters are in in these, in these . Broad figurative strokes. 

I mean, even Cosima her, I forgot to mention that she has a voodoo doll of her father at one point that she uses to sort of torment him at different points because she wants revenge on him, honestly, for, for understandable reasons of him choosing not to be there. And I mean, I, I agree with Ebert, you know, this berserk exercise of demented genius. 

And I do think it works. I think a lot of, as he says, a lot of people do not wanna watch this movie because they're like, what is this going on? It's like, don't think about what's going on. Just absorb it, just absorb it, just let it wash over you. And don't try to explain it later. don't try to do what, what we, we are gonna do. 

Don't try to explain this movie. .  

[00:58:47] Nicole: Yeah, it's not a great movie where if, for people who every moment of watching needs to be like, but, but, but what's happening. You have to be able to just be like, I'm just gonna sit back and let this movie happen and enjoy the experience and maybe analyze what was going on later. 

Mm-hmm . But if you're, which is what I try to do generally with movies, anyway, if I'm analyzing a film in too much depth while I'm watching it for the first time, it's a bad sign about that film.  

[00:59:17] Sean: That's a bad movie  

[00:59:18] Nicole: Because it meant I needed to do that in order to entertain myself, because otherwise I'd be like not able to engage. What I really try... 

[00:59:27] Sean: [Coughs] Avatar 

[00:59:28] Nicole: Yeah. What I really try to do when I li -whenever I watch a film for the first time is I generally try to just experience it and figure it out later. Yeah. Because it's because it's, it'll remove me. From having the emotional experience. If I'm technically breaking it down too much while I'm watching it, that's what I do when I'm alienated from the emotional experience I'm supposed to be having. 

[00:59:52] Sean: And, and, and I think one of the things, because I know some people just try to do that. Like whenever they watch a film, just like from the beginning, I'm like, no, you gotta watch the whole film first. It's like, when people  

You're  

[01:00:01] Nicole: missing the film. Yeah. 

[01:00:02] Sean: It's like when people don't watch a whole film or they watch the beginning of film, oh, the film is about this. 

Did you watch the whole thing? This is also a problem that I have with some serialized things like people watch, like you know, the first half of a season of a show or the first episode of a season of a show. And they're like, oh, they're doing this thing. It's like, they have not finished the story yet. 

You don't know what they're doing until they finish the story. This happens in the, this happens in comics too, which is relevant to this conversation. But because comics will often have a story that takes place over, you know, months. Well, social media does not deal with that well., they're like, they can't do this. 

Why are they doing this? It's like, they're setting up a story, let them finish it. And then let's shit on them. Yeah. But uh, but yeah, you've gotta absorb the whole story first and then you can understand it or not understand it, but like get, get the whole thing in there first. Or if you're just like, they're starting in a way where I'm like this bullshit, like, okay, that's fair. 

But just say like, they start a way that was bullshit and I don't wanna know what, what the next thing's going. Okay. That's fine. But  

gotta watch the whole thing.  

[01:01:01] Nicole: Yeah. Or if you genuinely know are are right, cuz that, which is happens,  

[01:01:05] Sean: Happens that's for sure  

[01:01:07] Nicole: Yeah. I, I don't, I don't want to, you know, make too broad of a rule of like, you can't pass judgment on a film until you've seen it. 

I don't think that's true. Actually. I just think that you are missing out on the experience of cinema. If you are trying to analyze and figure out what you think about a film from the first frame mm-hmm you're then you're missing the film. I, that is not for me the most rewarding way to engage with an art form that I have put a lot of stock into. 

Yeah. Why would I do that? Um, But what did curious about Ebert Ebert had unfortunately passed on by the time Thor, Ragnarok came out, but ebert.com lives on and Matt Zoller Seitz reviewed Thor Ragner. On ebert.com. What did, what did he have to say?  

[01:01:56] Sean: He also  

gave it three stars and he said, Hemsworth, Hemsworth. 

Hemsworth's charisma holds Thor Ragnarok together whenever it threatens to spin a part, which unfortunately is often I  

can see how that's an interpretation when you watch it for the first time. But as  

you were saying earlier, like it's very tight. And I mean, I remember that being, and I remember, I think I saw it before you and I was praising it to you, cuz I was like, dude, this was like, this was like, this was like, it's one of the comic book films. 

One of the things I think it is probably in some respects, as you said, like probably the best comic book film in some respects because it best captures one of the experiences reading comic book where like I could go, we could watching that movie. I could tell you like, you know, for that kind of comic book, I was like, this is where, this is where a, this is where one of the issues would end. 

This is where one of the issues would end. This is where one of the issues would end. It was, it had a structure that felt a lot like a comic book. It, it weaved in characters from elsewhere, but in a way where you didn't necessarily have to know a whole lot, it's like Dr. Strange shows up because we need to talk to a guy cause we need to find his dad. 

Who's he gonna talk to? He's gotta Dr. Strange doctor strange deals with magic shit. These guys are magic shit. So that's, what's gonna happen. Thor's gotta run into somebody in space. So he's got like ally, so, okay. We'll bring in Valkyrie who haven't introduced, so new character. Great. But we need somebody who's already out there. 

Who do we got in one of the movies? Like they sent Hulk out into space, you know, and, you know, Thor and Hulk as a team up. That's great. Like, okay, cool. And so, you know, they do, they do that. And I think, you know, that's like when you're, when you're reading, you know some of the more solid comic book stories in this genre of comic book, obviously not necessarily all comics or not necessarily this kind of comic, despite what some people think. 

Uh, And I think that it works. It's very tight in that sense.  

[01:03:56] Nicole: Yeah. And also the look of it, honestly, the design, the art direction  

[01:04:02] Sean: it's amazing 

[01:04:03] Nicole: is, is. I mean, let's be real. Most of these comic book, movies look like shit.  

[01:04:09] Sean: A lot, a lot. A lot of their design is, is not good. And the, one of the reasons why the design in this is so good is because they go back to the source. 

Like a lot of there's a significant Kirby inspiration, which is a thing that just is, and which one of the things that's so marvelous about that, not to bring Marvel in, but just to say, like, is that he had, you know, sometimes people like see his work for the first time and they're kind of like, I don't know. 

The people look kind of weird. It's like, yeah, but you'd look past that to the design. He made things look unique, everything like he, like these characters would look unique, even though there were similarities. Like if you looked at cuz he was the artist for Jack Kirby he was the artist for everything Marvel in the sixties for a long time, you know, he would at least start them with minor exceptions. 

Like he wasn't the artist on Spiderman. He wasn't the artist on Dr. Strange. Those were both Steve Ditko but he did this design work. And if you would see like these Thor and he is like, well, okay, I gotta do space Vikings basically. Or I gotta do, you know, superhero Vikings. They could all look the same. 

Like somebody else might make, oh, well just all look like. But if you look at like the artwork on it, they all looks just. Unique interesting, different. Like they all have a feel to them and they brought that here, which honestly isn't as present in the other Thor movies, even like there are the unfortunately underserved sort of sidekicks of Thor, the warriors three characters who are the, his three buddies, the big heavy guy, the blonde guy and the, and the Asian guy mm-hmm and you know, they kind of are blend in together in the, in, in all of these films. 

Like they kind of don't really factor into Ragnarok very much at all.  

[01:05:59] Nicole: No,  

they show up and get killed.  

[01:06:01] Sean: Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. They get, they die. They die and 

[01:06:04] Nicole: Hela kills them.  

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like a thing it's a Mar they, they exist as an important marker of Hela's growing dominance. 

Yeah. But they don't really exist as characters. No. And they,  

[01:06:13] Sean: and it it's kind of a bummer that they never got to be, but they were very unique in the books. Like they have like this unique feel and vibe that that is part of like his design skill and they leaned into that. And it's. I, I think it helps the movie a lot. 

It's and it's just down to things like just that they had those lines and circles on things, or even just the lines that are on like uh, Valkyrie's face. I think, you know, she's got those makeup lines, like these are inspired by, they're not the same thing, but it really, really helps the film.  

[01:06:45] Nicole: It really like Thor has like Ragnarok. 

Thor has a distinct look just because of the kind of like scrappy armor that gets put together when he is on Sakaar. And he has the face paint that you were talking about. That's like never explained it's just there. And there's a lot of the, the rooms there, like you said, there's, there'll be graffiti on the walls or there will just be like weird designs. 

Mm-hmm painted on the walls. And I know a lot of that was taken from the comics and even the kinds of color palettes mm-hmm they work with feel a lot more comic booky than most Marvel or any other comic book films. And that is. Yeah, delightful. And it's why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you do that? It's just, so 

[01:07:27] Sean: why wouldn't you embrace, embrace the, the weird and embrace, like the, the heightened thing. 

It's also a problem in the comics themselves today. Is that a lot of design, honestly, as much as there are artists working in it that do wonderful work. Like it's because of how big it's grown, they've all grown. There's been a lot of homogenization of design. And it is, it makes things look a lot ver pretty boring. 

Yeah, but, but I, but I will say like with that, one of the things just to, just to mention like this design thing and to bring it to a, a specific example of where I think that Marvel really failed is when Marvel just recently adapted one of Kirby's other works, which was entirely something of his, that Marvel let him do in the seventies. 

I think it was the seventies, late sixties, early seventies. The Eternals. Which originally was not part of the regular Marvel universe. This was like a whole thing that Kirby was doing on his own. He wrote and drew it. One of the criticisms of the design of the movie, which, you know, is I, I kind of, I don't hate the designs in that movie. 

I think they are pretty generic looking, but one of the, one of the criticisms is they just didn't use any of his design work. Really. There's a little bit of the lines and circle stuff going on, but they abandoned that when it's some, one of the few things that is like, wholly his, but there's a lot of like Kirby stuff that's being adapted where they have unins, they they've replaced his design with uninspired design. 

That's that's affected over at DC as well. I mean, I haven't seen the Snyder cut of justice league, but the villains in that dark side and apocalypse and all of those thing, all of those characters are also Kirby designs were also like a, he has like a whole, like there was supposed to be this whole new gods mythology that he was doing with those characters that eventually kind of fell apart, but there's spectacular design there and that's all abandoned in these live action things. 

And it becomes very homogenized and crappy. But as you said, Ragnarok really stands out for having this. And it's beautiful, really.  

[01:09:41] Nicole: It's rare to have a movie with this much CGI, where I actually like the way the CGI looks mm-hmm not like, it's fine, but I actually like it. I'm like, oh, you did something that looks good. 

Mm-hmm and distinct, amazing, you know? Amazing. And,  

[01:09:58] Sean: And I think when we criticize that, I think one of the things that we should also emphasize, because because of some things that are out in the news right now,  

[01:10:05] Nicole: Oh yes, please  

[01:10:06] Sean: Marvel, mistreats people which is not surprising, you know, in this, in this thing. 

And I do think is, is bad. And, you know, that needs to be rectified. There's a whole bigger conversation about the VFX world and uh, what needs to be fixed there. But when we talk about like, okay, this, this isn't working, the CGI, isn't working this, not criticizing the visual effects. Artists  

[01:10:30] Nicole: definitely not , I'm  

[01:10:31] Sean: we're criticizingdecision makers because they're the ones saying, make this look this way. 

And there's such like uninspired choices, like the producers and those people who are like, yeah, let's make all these monsters. Like, this is one of my big complaints for things is all these CGI monsters, you could do anything. Exactly. And they all are non-descript they all, that's a, they, none of them look like anything. 

[01:10:56] Nicole: I'm not saying it's poorly executed CGI on a technical level. I'm saying it's bad character design, it's bad set design. And that's not the CGI artists making those decisions. No. And then the other piece, and it's not even the  

[01:11:08] Sean: designers, it's the people who tell, who are like, this is what we want the design to look like. 

Cause also I don't wanna, I don't wanna shit on the designers either because some of those people are very, are, are incredibly talented and offer up some amazing, like when you see sometimes like the behind the scenes stuff where they're like here's designs, we didn't use, you're like, why the fuck didn't you use that? 

[01:11:27] Nicole: And for sure, for sure. No, we're talking about the suits who are like this movie made a lot of money and people like Nolan movie make it darker, whatever mm-hmm you know, like I'm not talking about artists here. I am talking about executives. And then the other piece of it, I extra wanna say, especially cuz we're talking about a Taika Waititi movie, right after an unfortunate vanity fair clip was being circulated as part of the promotion of Thor, love and thunder where Taika Waititi was shitting on the CGI and Thor love and thunder. 

And a lot of people very understandably got pissed off at that because it's a bad look. And also as Sean was alluding to CGI artists, especially the ones working for Marvel are being mistreated horrifically. So if you're gonna talk shit about the CGI, you have to be very specific about who you're aiming it at and not. 

punching down on people who are already being exploited. And then the other piece of it is aside from how badly the people who animate for Marvel are largely getting paid and how quickly they need to work. There's also the fact that they're getting jerked around all the time and being like change it. 

Mm-hmm man, change this, change that. And like everybody knows about the like horrific situation for the people doing the CGI for the movie Cats, for example, and how they were in an impossible situation. And that was part of why the CGI and the final film was like incomplete basically, because they were like, we gotta get this trailer together, put everything into the trailer. 

And then you've got like a month to finish the entire rest of the movie or whatever the insane schedule is because that's every Marvel movie, honestly,  

[01:13:06] Sean: like a lot of their work was very good. It's just that they couldn't complete their work. I mean, the movie itself was garbage.  

[01:13:14] Nicole: Are you calling Cats garbage? 

It is the finest garbage in the land.  

[01:13:19] Sean: Is it funny? Is it fun to watch with people and be like,  

[01:13:23] Nicole: this is crazy and why the fuck did they make this movie this way? Yes, it  

[01:13:27] Sean: is absolutely that. Is it a fun cinematic experience? Does it have some value? Absolutely. Is it  

a terrible.  

Terribly directed  

questionably performed  

[01:13:42] Nicole: Poorly conceived on every level  

[01:13:44] Sean: ...Giant pile level of shit. Yes, it is also that,  

[01:13:48] Nicole: But it's the finest pile of shit. 

[01:13:51] Sean: I don't know. 

[01:13:51] Nicole: Anyway,  

[01:13:52] Sean: But yes.  

[01:13:53] Nicole: Anyway, I wanted to share that Thor Ragnarok is one of the better reviewed films we've done on this show. I rotten tomatoes has a 93% fresh with critics and 87% fresh with audiences. Like there's, there's people who hate it, some critics and some audiences, largely cuz of the humor, it seems like, or for some other reason, it wasn't fitting with what they wanted out of the next door movie. 

And it, it baffles me, obviously I've said as far as I'm concerned, this is the best superhero movie. So I don't get that. Yeah. But, but it was largely. It is largely held in high regard. I think at this point, its reputation has grown over the years. Even. I feel like when it first came out, there was a little bit more, oh, I don't know. 

It's super jokey. And then as more Marvel movies came out, people are like, actually relatively speaking. This is pretty good. Yeah.  

[01:14:46] Sean: And it's, it's one that should have been structurally and, you know, approach wise a lot more of a model. And I really hope that, I mean, they're gonna keep doing Marvel stuff. 

But I really hope after the current spa spate of things that they're looking at, here's what we did with Ragnarok and what worked. Here's what we did with Black Panther and what worked, not just brought us in money, but brought us in a claim and go like, okay, what worked with those it's it's that they mostly stand on their own. 

They fit in they're part of the larger storyline. They fit into all that stuff. You can bring in other characters from there. Uh, But. It's it's a thing on its own and it's not trying to tie up loose ends from something else. Uh, It's not trying to, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's addressing like what happened next? 

Like both at the end of, at the end of Age of Ultron, the last time we saw Thor or the Hulk, like both of them like went off on their own, but separately, but they didn't, you know, you know, and they, we just had to figure, okay, let's find out what they're doing. So hopefully they do that because the other stuff has been a little bit like over stuffed overstuffed and underdeveloped  

Anyway, sorry. 

[01:16:12] Nicole: Oh, it's all good. Meanwhile, Lisztomania on Rotten Tomatoes is 45% fresh with critics 62 with audiences. And if there were more if more of the reviewers who were reviewing films in 1975 or among the rotten tomatoes, aggregated reviews, I, I think that critical assessment would be even lower because we read that Ebert review Ebert was really an outlier mm-hmm in giving it three stars. 

It was mostly like, this is dog shit. This is dog shit. This is dog shit. When we have a couple amusing quotes From some like local papers talking about Lisztomania such as Robin Wells wrote in the Lawton Constitution, this bizarre of Lisztomania this bizarre mating is being touted as Lisztomania Ringo star plays the role of the Pope. 

What else? Oh, yes. Wagner also dragged into, was also dragged into this affair. A couple of his works were retitled Master Race and Rape Pillage and Clap so much for the Nazis. 

[01:17:18] Sean: Okay.  

[01:17:18] Nicole: And William E Sacramento in the Lowell Sun said, I like this one, cuz as, as we've established, I love The Devils and, and this excerpt starts with The Devils was one of the most disgusting films ever made. If you think The Devils is disgusting, you should take a look at the history of the Catholic church. 

[01:17:39] Sean: Yeah.  

[01:17:39] Nicole: Just gonna put that out there. Having taken a look at Tchaikovsky and Mahler, Russell now gives us his view of pianist composer, Fran List. The entire film looks like a drug addict's prayer, which is very poetic, very poet.  

[01:17:54] Sean: It's good. It's a good, it's a, it's a good that, that that's that's clever  

[01:17:58] Nicole: I don't know why that's a bad thing though. 

Lisztomania has Ringo star as the Pope and Fran's list marching around with Adolf Hitler in some sort of tribute to Nazi-ism. That didn't happen.  

[01:18:08] Sean: That didn't happen. And that is a complete misunderstanding of what was going on and it's not, but like, I can understand how you just feel like the fuck is going on with this movie. 

And then you're like, well, there's Hitler and there's this guy, I guess this is,  

[01:18:21] Nicole: Yeah. But honestly, like I understand being like, I don't know what the fuck is going on with this movie, but if you were paying any attention to the movie, I, I, you would have to be coming from a very particular perspective to not understand that Hitler is the villain of this movie. 

Yeah. He's literally the antagonist and like, or, I mean, Hitler's not in it, but Wagner who becomes Hitler is becomes Franken, Hitler as yeah. Becomes Franken Hitler as he moves from uh, being a half-assed communist into like, you know, as really hot though is fascism. I mean, they're not calling it that, but like what he's describing, what he is trying to foment is, you know, mm-hmm, the, the beginnings of fascism. 

And obviously that is Ken Russell's point as then he makes him into Franken, Hitler mm-hmm and he's antisemitic the whole time. And all of that is portrayed extremely negatively to the point of being like childishly heavy handed.  

[01:19:22] Sean: Yes.  

[01:19:22] Nicole: If anything, so to, yeah. View this as any sort tribute... I'm just like, look, I get not understanding what the fuck is happening in the film. 

That's fine. But we're not that adrift that that is unclear. You would've have to have like really checked out and just not even be trying and just been looking for things to be offended at. Like, if you don't like Ken Russell's treatment of fascism and Hitler, if you have criticisms of that, great. 

I'm not saying like, you know, this is an unimpeachable cinematic approach. But it is not pro-Nazi  

[01:20:00] Sean: No, it's definitely not that.  

[01:20:01] Nicole: And I don't, I literally don't know how you could get that from it, unless you just,  

[01:20:05] Sean: You're not paying attention  

[01:20:06] Nicole: And not even just not paying attention cuz it's not even like the context tells you the Mise en scene tells you. 

[01:20:13] Sean: Yeah.  

[01:20:13] Nicole: Just what you're seeing in the fucking frame. And what you're hearing at any given moment is pretty clear.  

[01:20:18] Sean: It's telling you exactly what it is. Yeah.  

[01:20:20] Nicole: You know, this isn't a fucking-. As we were talking about Marilyn Manson a little bit earlier and. um, Or we're on our Google docs, at least talking a little bit about Lisztomania and the wall and mm-hmm, fascist rock star imagery, and you know, which is Marilyn Manson. 

Just bit, really The Wall. I don't even know if you've seen Lisztomania, but there's  

[01:20:39] Sean: when I think about it, I hadn't really thought about that before. Cuz you were pointing, you were pointing out that like, oh, he probably took it from this like rockstar to fascism idea. That's in like Lisztomania and I was like, oh, and actually when I started thinking about the imagery of what I can remember from Anti-Christ Superstar for the music video, I'm like actually that kind of, I think it's probably, I think it's probably The Wall. 

I mean, it's definitely the wall, very like Nazi sort of like inspired, like what he was doing there.  

[01:21:13] Nicole: It's definitely the wall, the wall, but The Wall and Lisztomania I think are share a little bit of DNA. They're interested in some of the same themes, which is why I made, what I think is a mistake and was like, I know Marilyn Manson just ripped off list of mania, cuz I just was not thinking about the existence of the wall at the time. 

And I'm like, oh no, he actually ripped off The Wall.  

[01:21:33] Sean: But like, because we can't watch The Wall.  

[01:21:36] Nicole: Yeah, that's true. We can't watch the, The Wall  

[01:21:37] Sean: Pink Floyd will not let us watch the wall. Yeah, what's his name? Roger Roger, whatever his name is. He's like, no, I don't like that movie. You can't watch  

[01:21:46] Nicole: Roger Waters,  

[01:21:47] Sean: Roger Waters. He just, we're not allowed to watch that movie. And I'm just like, okay. But like the version that I've seen is just awesome. So  

[01:21:57] Nicole: Maybe someday we will be able to watch The Wall. A lot of people watched Thor, Ragnarok in theaters. Mm-hmm it made 315 million domestically 538 million world wa or internationally for a total of 854 ish million total, which is, is pretty good. 

I can't find any figures for how much money Lisztomania made, but everybody says it was none.  

[01:22:26] Sean: Yeah, it was. And, and it wasn't one of those don't think this movie making a whole lot of movie, so money, so  

[01:22:30] Nicole: No, and it didn't have some li like it's a cult favorite in a, for a very niche audience, but it's not like it then was like a big midnight movie thing or huge on VHS or anything like that. 

It, no, it was not in terms of awards. Lisztomania I'm not aware of anything it was nominated for, or one. I know it didn't win anything. Ragnarok was nominated for like. Tons of sci-fi mm-hmm type awards at won a few. It was nominated for some like MTV Awards Kids' Choice awards, that kind of thing. It, it was, it was a well received film. 

Yeah. It was a well received film much more so than Lisztomania 

[01:23:10] Sean: so let's yeah, so, so that's  

[01:23:12] Nicole: we have  

[01:23:12] Sean: bills  

that's sort of the, the,  

yeah, so let's, let's take a quick ad break and then we'll be back in just a second.  

[01:23:18] Nicole: So yeah, we'll come back to talk to talk all about what these films reflect about one another, as well as the audience watching in terms of iconography, north mythology, fascism, and imperialism, antisemitism, all that good stuff. 

The power of rock and roll, but after we pay some bills, so here we go.  

[01:23:39] Sean: Okay. We're back. 

[01:23:41] Nicole: And we are back. That was some advertising.  

[01:23:46] Sean: It likely was. I can't remember it like my brain just blanked out on it, but like, I'm sure I will remember it in my dreams and it will be awkward  

[01:23:57] Nicole: educational, informational salutational 

Muppetational  

[01:24:04] Sean: Speaking  

Of speaking of words. So we talked a little about what broadly, what these films have to do with each other. I think we're gonna focus on, I think if we really wanted to, we could probably dig in a lot because I think one, as we talked about Lisztomania actually is fairly dense in terms of what it's trying to do. 

And I think that there's a lot that can be said about what Taika Waititi would just, and, you know, and the screenwriters put into into Ragnarok, but there's kind of theory. And also how it  

[01:24:37] Nicole: go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say, and also the thing about Ragnarok is how it sits in relation to other Marvel films, other Thor, films, et cetera, makes even more to dive into in terms of the meaning beyond just what happens in the film itself. 

Yeah. So there's, there's a lot, there's a  

[01:24:55] Sean: lot is what there's a lot, but what we kind of wanted to focus on like three things, one of them would be sort of how these approach fascism and imperialism, which are not the same thing, but are  

[01:25:07] Nicole: Related  

[01:25:08] Sean: Adjacent. Uh, We wanna talk about the iconography that is used in both of them, because they both heavily like lean into that and transforming art slash mythology slash culture. 

Uh, These are kind of the three major things that, that we wanted to talk about with these three films. So when it comes to fascism and imperialism, as we, as we said, like Leia's interest is mostly in the rise of fascism and sort of setting the table for fascism, not even really the rise of fascism, it's really like let's set the ideological framework for a fascist state while Ragnarok is dealing with imperialism and sort of the aftermath of imperialism, like what happens to that state, the imperialist state, you know, and when when it is brought down, essentially like when it is revealed for being what it is. 

So,  

[01:26:11] Nicole: yeah, and I mean, Lisztomania is almost analogous to like The White Ribbon. right. In terms of what it's about. You've seen The White Ribbon, right? I  

[01:26:22] Sean: need to see the white ribbon. I just, I haven't seen, oh, you need to, I need to see The White Ribbon.  

[01:26:27] Nicole: I haven't seen The White Ribbon is about early 20th century Germany and conditions that according to Hanake at at least can help give rise to fascism. 

Yeah, basically. So it's, it's very analogous, very, very different film, but somewhat analogous concerns in this department than Lisztomania so, yeah, so Lisztomania, and, and the white ribbon are kind of similar. And then, you know, Lisztomania, isn't really talking about imperialism per se, but just cuz they're not there yet. 

Right. Cause like fascist Germany was imperialist a hundred percent. They, they were expanding out beyond, but that's not what Wagner is talking about yet. Right? Like Wagner is talking about the idea of the German people and a very racist form of German nationalism and how he's, you know, become dis disillusioned with communism way earlier than anyone should have gotten disillusioned with. 

What would become 20th century communism, at least mm-hmm he's because he's just a he's a poser, right? Yeah. Like he's a poser and he was into communism cuz that was the thing. And then he's like, but he was only really into communi.  

[01:27:41] Sean: Well, I I think go.  

[01:27:44] Nicole: I was trying, I'm trying to think of how to put it. 

Exactly.  

[01:27:47] Sean: I, I, I think is what you're saying about him being a poser. He doesn't have substance of his own what he's doing. And, and I think was very relevant when we talk about the rise of fascism and fascist people, he does not have substance or a real belief system of his own. His belief system is basically I want to be at the top. 

And I think that's very well established with Wagner from the beginning, from his first appearance and how he's glomming on to List. And, and just in case, you know, we talked about how this film isn't like literal, but it is. True that there is a direct relationship between List, not just the fam familial relationship that was mentioned. 

There's a direct relationship between List. And Wagner in that in in music circles you know, classical music circles. Like there's an acknowledgement that Wagner borrowed or stole uh, quite a, and it's mentioned in the movie from List in terms of his mu in terms of musical themes and stuff like that is because he has no substance of his own is essentially the point and much like fascist. 

They have no substance of their own. They have no real belief of their own. Other than that, I should be on top. I have no, I have no, they have, there's no reason they should be. Usually it says, well, I should be because I wanna be because they're they're children. And that's why he's so often depicted as a little boy in this until right until the end. 

He's very, he's, you know, that outfit, that little sailor out, he's wearing this weird little sailor outfit for most of his appearances in the film. And it's, it's just, it's, it's, it's absurd, but it's also like very much commenting on like this. He is a little boy. He is, he is a pathetic little boy.  

[01:29:35] Nicole: Right. And his interest in communism was also this really weird perversion of communism, honestly, mm-hmm of, he wanted to be. he had this vision of there being like a leader of the people. Yeah. Who like rises up and say like this very, you know, narcissistic individualistic, ironically, vision of communism. He just wants to be the, he wants to be the star of something. 

[01:30:01] Sean: Yes.  

[01:30:02] Nicole: It can be communism. It can be fascism. He doesn't care. Mm-hmm , you know, he really doesn't care cuz it's not about the system. It's not about the ideology. It's about him being on top, which in theory shouldn't be a thing in communism. Obviously we saw how 20th century communist states operated. Um, You know uh, we, I can give some reading suggestions. 

If anyone wants to hear pro communist critiques of 20th century communist states, mm-hmm for an example you can read Emma Goldman's my disillusionment with Russia and that'll cover most of it. Including stuff that happened afterwards, cuz same, same problematic dynamics problematic is way too light a descriptor actually same fucked dynamics. 

uh, Yeah, but.  

[01:30:52] Sean: And, and there is a, you know, they're, they're both dealing with this and as you said, like fascism does tend to lead to imperialism. Like it's like, well, we're on top. We need to be on top everywhere.  

[01:31:05] Nicole: Right. Fascism can be imperialism, but imperialism is not necessarily  

fascism.  

[01:31:10] Sean: Yes. And there, there was a definition you pulled a useful article and I just grabbed like the first paragraph, cuz I was like, okay, this actually like sums up things decently just to like differentiate a little bit. 

Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism. It is a movement based on rejection of social theories, fascists sought to unite their nation into a totalitarian state based on ancestry and culture. Imperialism on the other hand is not entirely as radical or authoritarian as fascism. It is the policy of acquiring new lands and territories to enhance or increase one's influential power. 

And actually reading that again. I actually would now argue that Taika Waititi's position on Asgard would be that Asgard was a fascist state.  

[01:32:01] Nicole: It, it could definitely be occurred to me. I think that's arguable. I mean,  

[01:32:05] Sean: I can't speak for him, but I think that there's a depiction there. Right. I don't know.  

[01:32:09] Nicole: Yeah. I mean, I, I don't think it was a, I mean it's a fascist state under Hela. 

[01:32:15] Sean: Yes, it's definitely that. I think there might be an argument for it. Having had been a fascist state under Odin previously,  

[01:32:24] Nicole: but it, but it moved into a more benevolent empire benevolent in quotes. I don't know what the political structure is on Asgard. There's a king or what do they, what's a, whatever king. 

[01:32:35] Sean: Yeah. It's king,  

[01:32:36] Nicole: you know, it's not, it's not democratic, right? No, but it's, it's a monarchy, right. Is basically yeah. What, what we have there, but I think, yeah, the same thing occurred to me. There's a lot of very fashy elements to Hela hard as that is for me to say, because I like Hela so much. I mean, she's a villain. 

What she wants to do is terrible, but I, I really like Cate Blanchett in that role and sidebar, I have read criticisms and heard criticisms of people saying Cate Blanchett is phoning it in. And all I have to say about that is if Cate Blanchett did this performance, phoning it in, then who are you to second guess Cate Blanchetts choices because clearly phoning it in was the correct decision to make here. 

Cause it's awesome.  

[01:33:20] Sean: Cause I mean,  

[01:33:21] Nicole: she's awesome. It's should she win an Oscar? No, but is she having a great time? Yes. And am I having a great time? Yes. So,  

[01:33:30] Sean: And when she does these movies that are honestly like more of a, you know, it's not like a challenging acting job, it's just probably more of a paycheck. 

Like there's this, or there's the Ocean's Eight movie that she's in. Like, is she as good as she is in it's too? Yeah. She's great in that too. But is it like the thing that she's doing in other films? No, because she doesn't need to because it, the role does not require it. These are not, these are not dense roles,  

honestly. 

[01:33:56] Nicole: It's not like anyone else in Thor, Ragnarok. And, and I think there are a lot of great performances in Thor, Ragnarok. I think it's a wonderful cast. I think they're doing a great job. Mm-hmm I haven't seen Love and Thunder yet, but however good or terrible it may be. I want to see these actors play these characters again. 

Mm-hmm because I enjoy that very much. Inclusive of Cate Blanchett, but like not, you know, not discounting Tom Hitton, who I love is Loki I've. As I've mentioned, I obviously love Chris Hemsworth as Thor. I love Tessa Thompson as valry there's all these Taika Waititi regulars also in smaller roles, like Rachel House. 

Is that her name? Who plays? Topaz? Yeah, Rachel House playing Topaz. Carl Urban playing Scourge. There's like,  

[01:34:41] Sean: He goes to his  

New Zealand folks. Yeah.  

[01:34:44] Nicole: And it's and it's nice. Mm-hmm , it's it  

adds,  

[01:34:47] Sean: there's also Sam Neil in a tinier little role.  

[01:34:50] Nicole: There is Sam Neil in a tiny little role and it, it really elevates the material cuz you really do have this cracker Jack cast who are all, you know, and Mark Ruffalo's good too. 

Like they're and Jeff Goldbloom's good. They're all good. They're all good. They're all bringing something. Um, But we're here to talk about fascism, not just how much I like the Ragnarok cast,  

[01:35:09] Sean: So yeah. And um, 

[01:35:11] Nicole: But yeah, I, I agree that  

[01:35:14] Sean: there's an argument  

[01:35:15] Nicole: ...Fascist elements. Yeah. But what's, what's more like, not even an argument, but is just, there is that Asgard was um, empire built on colonialism and mm-hmm and imperialism like that. 

That is just text. That's not an interpretation. And similar to what you tell how Lisztomania is. It's just text that it's about fascism specifically and it's about a specific fascism that did become yeah. Imperialist, but that's not what it's concerned.  

[01:35:43] Sean: And it's, I, I, one of the things that I also, you know, watching it again this last week you know, the more times you watch things, more times you see like certain details. 

But one thing that I noticed this time and that I appreciate with Russell is because his, his interest in fascism. Here in a lot of ways is it's it's his interest is corruption, it's corruption of art, and he sees art as and this something we talk a little bit more about later maybe, but, you know, he sees art as, as, as something that's is a good and arguably, you know, maybe even maybe is, is a good thing is a good force in the universe. 

And I think, you know, the finale of Lisztomania is, is, is part of that. But in this, he, you know, the he, he, he layers in a lot about how about complicity, I think, and about how, you know, this sort of corrupt approach to art that Wagner is doing leads to a corruption of the soul in general. Like it is, it is a corruption of, of humanity. 

What is what is happening with Wagner but also like there's little subtle things that are just kind of about the just Nazis and things as a whole uh, one thing that I noticed this is sort of around what way to get to this, is that in the background right before. The the robot Thor is, is introduced. 

There's a bunch of Volkswagen symbols on the wall, like huge Volkswagen symbols. And it made me think this time I was kind of related to this about because this movie is a lot about like legacy and art extend and, and art sort of build being part of this like corrupting soul corruption, but how, some of the, the, the legacy of those, those organizations, those people who benefited from or participated in um, the uh, Nazism uh, persist today without much in the way of, without much in the way of acknowledgement, most of the time Volkswagen being one of them  

[01:38:09] Nicole: Sure.  

And there's a reason my family, when I was a kid, I was like, I wanna punch buggy. And my parents are like, we're never buying a volkswagen  

[01:38:16] Sean: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.  

[01:38:17] Nicole: In the eighties? Yeah.  

[01:38:18] Sean: And, and it's a thing that, you know, it, it comes up, I forget about it often, cuz it just doesn't come up very often. 

But you, you know, there's other things there's Hugo Boss, there's Coco Chanel there's  

[01:38:28] Nicole: Yep. Some of those fashion motherfuckers.  

[01:38:30] Sean: Yeah.  

[01:38:31] Nicole: So like it's not just these companies, some of the individuals still involved hold. It's not just like, well, we never really reckon with it's like some of it's just  

still  

[01:38:44] Sean: straight up Nazis. I mean there's a lot of stuff. Yeah.  

[01:38:47] Nicole: Go ahead. Look at our country. Yeah. I mean I was talking a friend of my, my husband Shawn's actually is in town from Berlin where she lives now Uhhuh and we had dinner and we were talking about that and I was talking to her about how it's kind of funny to me to be thinking about going to Germany, to escape fascism mm-hmm 

And yet that is and Germany's got its own fucking problems. Does still have its own problems. Germany's definitely got its own problems, but there's somewhat different problems than the ones we have here and the Nazi direction we're going here. The specifically Christian nationalism, the white Christian nationalism that is gaining. 

A throttle on so-called politics, which we're having less and less of in this country is something that is never far from my mind when I was looking at these two films, cuz they're very instructive as to a lot of the, the same conditions happening here today. You know, you watch Lisztomania and you Wagner's tirades and it's only, you know, swap out a few specifics and it's, and that's the Republican party today. 

Yeah. In the United States,  

[01:39:52] Sean: it's, it's a hundred percent done and I think it's, and, and there's a, I mean, One of, one of the, one of the, you know, criticisms that I think is sometimes levied against Lisztomania for what it's trying to do. So like, oh, they kind of oversimplify it and it's like, yes, it's not doing every, it's not saying it it's, it's not really saying that Wagner invented Nazim. 

[01:40:18] Nicole: Oh, it's not really saying that Wagner was the original Hitler who had a gun guitar, like one YY, you  

[01:40:26] Sean: know what I mean? It's is honestly people are like, well, it's more complicated. And it's like, no, shit, it's more complicated than that. But he had a theme that he was that he was exploring and like, it's, this is one of the things that makes it a great film, I think is that it is it executes focused on its theme as much as a mess as it looks like it is. 

It's so focused on its theme of the corruption of art. Like exactly. And that's yeah, go ahead. Sorry.  

[01:40:56] Nicole: No, no, just exactly that I was gonna say it's like you were saying earlier, it's more about the corruption of art in this case specifically towards fascist ends, but it's more about the corruption of art than it's about the rise of fascism. 

Yeah. And like, that's, that's what his passion is about. That took him to this other place. Like that's the root of  

[01:41:14] Sean: it. Mm-hmm and I think that um, I actually have a quote about that somewhere here. But we've talked about that in a sec, but one of the things that I think, you know, with that, because that was one of the first things that I hooked onto with the film was like, was, was that it was about the corruption of art and then the corruption of, of this, of the soul, because of because of corrupted art lists, interactions with heads of state and things like that is a  

[01:41:42] Nicole: problem. 

The Ringo star is the Pope. It's a Ringo star. It's really interesting.  

[01:41:46] Sean: It's  

[01:41:48] Nicole: throughout this time, I was so struck by the difference in the portrayal of the Catholic church, between the devils and Lisztomania and how it's so different, cuz it's also the Catholic church in different places at different times. 

When they're doing different stuff, you know, but like it, the church comes off as a bit less horrific in Lisztomania right? Like the Catholic church, isn't the big, heavy in Lisztomania, right? Like the Catholic church doesn't come off as bad as Nazim, but it comes off. Go ahead, corrupting. Right. And like that's in terms of like, it's, it's key to list cells out, basically, for reasons of his own comfort, even though he doesn't believe right. 

Mm-hmm like AB absolutely. It's it's and, and the Pope is portrayed as like less scary than in The Devils, because it's not that people are being tortured and killed in the name of the church. At least not that we're seeing in Lisztomania, but the Pope is just fucking full of himself. He's dressed up, you know, he's played by Ringo star in appointed way. 

You've got a rock star playing the Pope. He's wearing these outfits that are covered with photos of like old Hollywood movie stars. Many of whom haven't even been born yet at the time, the events of the film, supposedly take place. It's more of that. You know, it's not, it's not liberal, but it's telling you, this is what this guy's about. 

Mm-hmm right. And so he's, he's corrupt. He doesn't give a shit. He's not a true believer. There's a lot of nudge, nudge, wink, wink between him and list. You scratch my back. I'll scratch yours, et cetera. And that's a piece of list selling, selling his soul, even though in a way the, the portrayal of religion is, is so different from The Devils. 

But it's, and, and in some ways, not as bad, but it's, it's still a piece it's still doing its part to make things be bad in the broader structure. If anything, I just said made any sense. No,  

[01:43:43] Sean: absolutely.  

[01:43:45] Nicole: Um, Yeah. Um, You know, cuz as we were just talking about it, obviously this is all super resonant, two stuff happening in the United States right now where we also have conditions for uh, emergent fascism, which is happening literally. 

Right, right now, which is cool. Um, One of the things I'll put the, a link in the show notes to an article, the fools of national socialism by my friend, Dan Berger from Abolition Journal. And it's a article he wrote in 2016 about Donald Trump and the role of antisemitism in animating Trump's rise and talking about the role of antisemitism in animating far right power, more generally as a, as a kind of far right ideology. 

Uh, He was talking about how. Trump's rise was in part animated by antisemitism. I agree that that is true. Jews were also definitely in no way, shape or form the primary targets mm-hmm of the racism, xenophobia, et cetera, that Trump campaigned on. Right? He wasn't, he, he said some anti-Semitic stuff don't get me wrong. 

He said some anti-Semitic stuff. But it would be ridiculous for me to say that Jews were what he was primarily focusing his uh, rabid dissatisfied bases, anger at it. Wasn't primarily being focused on the Jews for a number of reasons, including the fact that us politics vis-a-vis Israel complicate the way a lot of these things manifest because Trump fucking loves Israel because all these motherfuckers love Israel. 

They love Israel, you know, for reasons of foreign policy efficacy, four reasons of hatred that other people, 

[01:45:53] Sean: They hate the brown people more than the Jews  

[01:45:55] Nicole: They hate. They hate the Muslims, nevermind that like Palestinians are not. all Muslim at all. There're tons and tons of Christian Palestinians. You would think these People would give a shit about them. 

They don't. No, because they don't really care if Palestinians are Christian and Muslim for the purposes of this like clumsy hammer of antisemitism. And I'll explain why I'm calling that antisemitism in a minute. You know, it doesn't matter. It's the same thing. It's that racialized other who is the scapegoat, who is responsible for all your problems. 

Right? We had a lot of that being Muslims in the two thousands and Muslims obviously still play that role to a degree in the imaginations of these racists. A lot Christian nationalists tend to see themselves as being in this like, you know, existential struggle with Islam basically. As, as the primary religious enemy, as opposed to Judaism, Jews are relegated to a different role right now in part is everybody's like trying to say, like, what's good for the Jews versus what's bad for the Jews is just about, what's good for Israel. 

And what's not, which is I would hope listeners of our show um, understand that Israel is not the Jews. Israel is a nation state. It's a colonial nation state that exists in its current incarnation on a lot of the same kinds of colonialism that we were just talking about, vis a vis Asgard, and Thor, Ragnarok that. 

There's there's some, there's some commonality there. And the Israel's obviously like key strategic ally for the United States also for various Christian nationalists, Christian fundamentalists, cetera. They're very invested in Israel in so far as how it plays into their understanding of the end days, which they are prepping for basically. 

Yeah. None of it has anything to do with any kind of love for the Jews. It's just about convenience. It often is very tied actually to hatred for Jews. Um, But point being so my friend Dan wrote about how the notion that Mexico sends their people. If people remember from early in the Trump campaign, this was one of his first Mexico sending their worst people here that was big. 

Big point of his. So Dan points out that Mexico sends their people is a foolish framing of why and how migration happens yet. It reveals the antisemitic structure of Trump, of Trumpian racial logic put simply Trump's antisemitism is not primarily about Jews, rather the antisemitism functions as a structuring apparatus for his racist political outlook by antisemitism. 

I mean, and this is, this is the pull quote here. I mean a right wing populist ideological framework. That is one steeped in conspiracy thinking two premised on a misplaced anti-elitism against a secretive racialized Kabal that three can only be understood, crude, patriarchal nationalist terms. And then he goes on to further. 

So to further explain what that means. So you can see examples of an anti-Semitic ideological framework, targeting people who are not Jews. For example, today, the, the first thing that comes to my mind in terms of big thing that 

pretty angry about this right now, excuse me. Um, The way the right is using transgender people. Mm-hmm as it's it's beyond being a wedge issue at this point, Trans people are being scapegoated. Mm-hmm by the right, within a framework where you could really just swap out trans people for the Jews and change a couple things. 

And it's the same shit. And you'll find with some of them, the ones that are explicit about their own antisemitism, you'll start finding some wild stuff about how, like, you know, Jews created transgender people or something like that. And the Jews are somehow, it's basically this big trans Jew conspiracy,  

[01:50:05] Sean: which actually honestly sounds like a really good party. 

[01:50:08] Nicole: The trans Jew conspiracy, actually, that's a good thing. Just what I want my life  

[01:50:12] Sean: to be. That's a good band name. We the trans Jew conspiracy. What's what's the thing you gotta say I guess could have been all, we are the trans Jew conspiracy. Yeah, that's a good band name. My  

[01:50:23] Nicole: sister could have called her band that instead of The Shondes, they could have just been the Trans Jew Conspiracy  

[01:50:28] Sean: sh should do that  

now.  

[01:50:30] Nicole: Well, they maybe, maybe that'll be her next band, but I thought this was really useful in terms of in terms of thinking about these movies and, but also in terms of thinking about how these movies relate to not only the past, but the present and I could go off on transphobia for a long time, cuz that's something I'm very preoccupied with and angry about right now. 

But if, if you, if you delve into that actually. It is so fucking, just Nazi shit. Yeah. You've got people with no scientific understanding, yelling about, but the science, but science says they don't fucking know what  

[01:51:11] Sean: science says, which, which science, they don't know. They're just science.  

[01:51:14] Nicole: There's, there's two genders, which is the same thing as sex and it's it's men and women. 

And it's obvious what it is. And the left is afraid to define a woman.  

[01:51:23] Sean: Yeah. I've heard that one. Yeah. I'm afraid to define most things, but that's  

[01:51:27] Nicole: it's a different, but you know, and different and, and what's so, what's so terrifying right now with the transphobia thing is how people who describe themselves as being liberals or left or feminists or anything like that are eating up some Nazi shit. 

They they're literally eating it up like this weird logic, this, this extremely illogical connection in that notorious New York times article by Paula Paulison or whatever fucking name is. I can't remember it. That's basically arguing that 

CIS women are losing rights because we are undermining our ability to have quote unquote sex based rights. because of the existence of, of trans people, basically existence of trans women means that, you know, abortion gets taken away because if you can't even define what a woman is, then how can you give a woman rights? 

Or so, look, I didn't read the fucking article. No, I didn't. I'm not giving them the fucking, I'm  

not giving them the click. 

[01:52:30] Sean: No, it's it's it's it's yeah, you're right. It is, it is the scapegoating thing and it is, I mean, and it's and would we, we don't  

[01:52:39] Nicole: go ahead. Oh yeah. Just if I could really quickly say I'll put this in the show notes too. 

I was so happy to see this article from Melissa Gira Grant who literally contextualize this quote unquote feminist fantasy as part of replacement theory as part of far right. Replacement theory, ALA, as we all remember from Charlotte's view Charlotte's view Charlottesville, you know, all the chance of Jews will not replace us. 

They might as well be as being saying, trans women will not replace us. And then you can see much like with, with the Jews and antisemitism people who are perhaps a little unstable things like that, prone to paranoid delusions and things like that. I'm seeing on SOC on social media and stuff. Now, a lot of what are clearly paranoid delusions mm-hmm by CIS people, vis Avi, transgendered, people that are. 

Very very similar to what delusional anti-Semites will be imagining about like the Jews being in the walls, controlling everything, basically, there's this new thing now you'll see. Maybe it's not new. I don't know where there will be. Like these CIS people who are just convinced that like transgender people are everywhere and you could be one and they could be one. 

And for some reason they're very terrified about this and they seem to feel that not knowing immediately whether somebody is SI or trans is, is somehow an existential threat to them and start trying to play like who's the secret trans person in a very similar way to like, who's the secret Jew and using basically like fucking like phenology type shit, like weird racist pseudoscience to be like, well, look at how this person's shoulder is slight. 

Cuz if you really look, you can really tell. And the way they're talking about trans people is exactly the same way. Just with some slightly different specifics. Although they're both very racialized and racist also about, you know, how you can tell what it, who a, who a quote unquote real meaning SI woman is versus a trans woman. 

And it's almost always focused on trans women. Yeah. As opposed to trans men, although trans men are getting the shit out end of the stick in very high profile ways. Otherwise such as apparently you're not able to acknowledge the fact that some trans and non-binary. People can become pregnant. Mm-hmm as well as some SI women. 

Yeah. That that's a thing. Apparently you can't acknowledge that. Cuz it's erasing women to talk about anybody else's experiences. I'm going on a tangent. I think us no, no. It's okay to say no,  

[01:55:06] Sean: no. What I was gonna say about that and we should probably like, this is, I think, you know we're talking about fashion, we're talking about the rise. 

Current rise of fashion in our own country is very relevant. I think one of the things, you know, when, and it was something I was thinking about while you're talking a little earlier too one of the things that is interesting and what you were pointing out, you know, all these things are just part of a spectrum like it's of, of, of, of hate of, of other. 

And what's interesting also to me is some of the, the misogyny that is baked into even the anti-trans because business, because of what you were just talking about is that the fixation is on trans women. Because the, the thing I think that is shocking for some of these people fascists in particular, cause fascists are so preoccupied with, with Manliness, with mass masculinity,  

[01:56:02] Nicole: it's key to the whole thing , and traditional gender roles. 

[01:56:05] Sean: Yeah. And, and I think, you know, this is part of, and. You know, goes in with you know, as part of why you know, one of the things that's important to also acknowledge and talk about as as, as a part of the spec of, of what's going on with fascism is the, the incels and things is, you know, it's you know, their, their obsession with masculinity because of their own perceived impotence or actual impotence or not literal impotence, maybe literal impotence could be uh, is, is, is, is their fixation, is it must it's things must be wrong if men want to be women, but if women want to be men, it's not a problem. 

Sure. They don't have as much of a problem with that. Of course you wanna be, man. But I think, you know, I think  

[01:56:50] Nicole: doesn't mean they'll accept you as a man. No, but that, that doesn't break their brains to someone would want that. Cause they're well, cuz they're that well,  

[01:56:59] Sean: cuz they also know how they treat women. 

Like why would you wanna be a one? We treat, we treat them like shit. And which was also born out and like all those articles that came out, like in the middle of the Trump era where all these like fascist women were like, they, they  

[01:57:14] Nicole: treat us so badly. I'm  

[01:57:15] Sean: like, well, like nobody has it coming, but you kind of do. 

I  

[01:57:18] Nicole: never thought the cheetahs will eat. My face party would eat my face.  

[01:57:22] Sean: Exactly. It's like, it's like, I don't know. I don't know. Why would they treat you like that when they treat everybody else like that? Is it because they're, that's how they treat everybody and you're not special. Which is, you know, we're gonna see so much, there's so much more of that is, is coming up because the Republicans are, you know, it's without the, without the, without the Scooby gang, without mystery incorporated, you know, we are in like, after the final act of, of of a Scooby do episode where the mask is off, wasn't a very good mask to begin with. 

And like, I remember seeing, I saw something about how, like the what is it, the log cabinet Republicans, the gay Republicans were, had their booth rejected from like a Texas state convention Republican state convention you know, it's what a couple of years, maybe max before the black Republicans are told, like, yeah, you're not welcome here either. 

Jewish Republicans, women, Republican groups, like they're all gonna get kicked to the curb and they're gonna be like, what happened? It's like, well, you know, that's we all told you who  

they were you know,  

so go cry as a river  

[01:58:27] Nicole: and, you know, maybe, maybe learn to be better people. When someone tells you who you are, who they. 

Be leave them. And they've been telling us for a long time. I wanted to ask you though. Before we move on to talking more about iconography specifically, you had mentioned a few times criticisms of the characterizations in Lisztomania. And I know that cuz we've talked about it before. Yeah. But one of, at least the things you had in mind was the characterizations of Jews themselves. 

Yeah. But I was wondering if, what else you had in mind,  

[01:58:58] Sean: if anything. I mean, I think that's the main thing because when I got to that part, watching the movie for the first time, I was kind of like,  

[01:59:05] Nicole: oh, tell them about what the part is, what  

[01:59:07] Sean: you mean by the so, so it starts at the point where lists goes to wherever, Wagner is. 

And it's like a hammer horror film where he is going up and asking the villagers that villagers are all Jews and they're all like this very heightened caricature of like a Hasidic Jewish person. There's lots of star David everywhere and other symbols that I don't know the names for. But they're all dressed like that. 

And they're all also like very sort of comic. You know, ver they don't really say anything. They sort of chatter and run and sort of sped up film. And then when they're all being murdered by Franken, Hitler Franken Wagner Hitler it's the same thing. And like, they you know, it's, it's, it's that specifically caricature where I was kind of like, well like this is one where if I tell people to watch this movie, like I'm concerned, some people are gonna look at that and say like, whoa, wait a second. 

This is, this is a bad, this is a bad thing. And I'm like, but like everything sort of a caricature, but this is, it's just, it's just a problem. It's, it's just sort of a one where I'm like, you know, cuz even when I said like, oh you we're gonna go see this movie, you should watch this movie. I was like, it's got some stuff where I can't say it's bad. 

I see what he's trying to do with it. But I feel like it might make some people uncomfortable.  

[02:00:34] Nicole: Look, here's my issue with that scene. My issue with that scene is because even though I couldn't really, I feel like I noticed this either when I watched it with you in the theater or maybe I was looking at screen caps later, but my issue is there's people with like prosthetic noses and stuff on yeah. 

In that scene. That's my issue. I don't have an issue with the fact that they're portraying observant Jews. I don't even, I, I can see why it would rub definitely see why it would rub someone the wrong way. I don't really care that like you know, Frankenstein monster, zombie Hitler Wagner comes in and just mows them all down and they don't put up like a big resistance fight or something like that, that all tonally, it fits to fits with the, with the film. 

It doesn't, I can see how people would feel some type of way about it. I can see how it could be upsetting. I can. I mean, I could definitely see how it could be upsetting and disturbing. I didn't view the action as scripted as being really anti-Semitic caricature at all. Mm-hmm I don't know how it played in the mid seventies, but for me watching it today, I have no problem with any of that. 

The only thing I have a problem with is the Jew face, which is putting prosthetics on people to make them quote, unquote, look Jewish. Yeah. That isn't a deal breaker with me for this movie, because that is something that happens in movies all the time. Mm-hmm and I don't find it. I find it offensive here, but I don't find it more offensive here than I do when it's Bradley Cooper, playing Leonard Bernstein. 

Okay. For example, which is literally happening right now, they hired Bradley Cooper to play Leonard Bernstein and they put a fake nose on his fucking face and it's like, let's not do that. Yeah. Let's just not do that. Um, So that, that bugs me the rest of it. I, I don't know if there are a lot of other movies where the Jew face bugs me a lot more here. 

Yeah. Like when it's the lead actor playing a lead role where I'm not even saying you have to cast Jewish people, the play Jewish people. I, I don't,  

[02:02:36] Sean: but you don't have to make people up to  

[02:02:40] Nicole: don't do it. Yeah. And especially it's weird with like the nose thing and the Jewish thing. It's it's, that's it's anti-Semitic it's yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

You know, so let's, let's not, but  

[02:02:52] Sean: yeah. And it's for me, it's one of those things where being a white man, who is a white CIS man who is trying to be sensitive. And I don't always, like, I don't always know if something is hitting on a specific like, whoa, this is actually like a dog whistle that I didn't know about or something like that. 

So I try to be careful with those things, because there are things where I'm like, there is like genuine, real, like value to this film and what it's doing and even, and, and those scenes also but also there's something here that. could be, could be a problem, but I'm not the person to say it's a problem. 

Basically.  

[02:03:35] Nicole: I wanna, I wanna also say that I love the scene where he goes to vampire Wagner's layer and sees this weirdo performance he's putting on for all the super children where there's this literal monster. Like when this monster representing Jews. Yeah. Like big star David on his, on his head, he's bald in the monstrous teeth and everything. 

He looks like an anti-Semitic caricature. He looks like a anti-Semitic cartoon. One of the versions of that, and he pretend rapes like the white ion ladies who are naked dancing as part of it. And then like, I guess Wagner destroys him with music or something is how it resolves.  

[02:04:21] Sean: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. 

And, and  

yeah,  

[02:04:24] Nicole: I think that's a great, I mean, I, I don't think it's great. I think it's anti-Semitic and horrible what's being depicted, but I think that is a very true mm-hmm depiction of, of this kind of antisemitic mythology. And yeah, and that I really appreciated that I have no problem with that scene. 

I think that  

[02:04:42] Sean: scene's great. Yeah. I think that, that, that, that's one where I don't think about that one as much in this case, because I'm like, that is like, if you don't get that, that is a criticism of the propaganda. Yeah. Then you don't get the movie. Like if you don't get, if you don't get that, you're not paying attention. 

Like, I  

[02:05:05] Nicole: really  

[02:05:06] Sean: don't like a little, I, you know, I need somebody to tell me whether that one's good right. Or wrong or not right or wrong, but like, is there a problem there? You know what I mean?  

[02:05:15] Nicole: Yeah. I mean, I think yes, but I think there's a problem in lots of stuff. I don't think that it's more of a problem than yeah. 

Any number of other things. Yeah. I, but it's also this thing of like, and, and seeing some of the reviews we mentioned where people seem to miss the point to a degree. There's also this thing that, especially, maybe it's still like this, I don't know, but like, if you're gonna talk about antisemitism or certainly the Holocaust, you can only do it in a very certain way. 

Mm-hmm, like you have to basically make Shindler list. Yeah. Or, or something of that ilk. And I really don't wanna live in a world where we cannot explore these disturbing things through art, unless it's like. , you know, something people would feel comfortable showing in a shitty high school history class. 

Yeah. I don't, I that's not what arts, I mean, I'm not saying that's not what arts for arts for a lot more than just that. Like, and I it's it's I, people I see are there can be a lot of pushback and, and some of it I'm sympathetic to, to a degree. I understand why people are skittish. I understand why people are concerned and, and all of that. 

I, I get that, but especially kind of leading into talking about iconography, actually.  

[02:06:39] Sean: Yeah, I mean, this is, this is definitely iconography in.  

[02:06:42] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and the Thor iconography, part of why I think both of these films resonate with me so much is, is being a Jewish person who like the, the bulk of the largest chunk of my background is Ashkenazi Jewish. 

Right? Mm-hmm from all the places that we were in getting kicked out of and shit in Russia and cetera, Poland. But then the not Jewish part of my family, the biggest chunk of that is Norwegian mm-hmm so like I'm Jewish in Norwegian. So when I see Nazi. Who are claiming Norse mythology and things. I mean, we're gonna talk about mythology separately, but the way this Iran iconography plays out of like the Thor character or something, there is some base level on which I'm like, fuck you, you don't get to have him. 

Yeah. I am more entitled to this dude than you are basically. And so there was something profoundly healing to me of seeing what Taka wa TTI did with the Thor character. Mm-hmm as a Jewish and my director who took this potential symbol of, you know, area in manhood and put him in this anticolonial context where he is reckoning with his own history and choosing how to move forward, given that history as a leader. 

And what he decides to do is destroy his empire home because that's, what's necessary to save lives. And also as a more subtle kind of Jewish theme, like I said before, part of why I was just like, huh, you know, this is a diasporic tale. This is about like, you know, this is about immigrants, you know? Um, Being in, new and different places and it not being about having a nation state, which goes back to, you know, con big conflict within Judaism right now, lots of Jews feel, Hey, the only reason we haven't been completely wiped out at this point is because we have Israel and therefore, like we re we, we must, it is our duty to defend Israel. 

And then there are some of us like myself who are like, I can't have my salvation tied to the ethnic cleansing of another group. Yeah, yeah, no. You know or, you know, at et cetera. So these are some of the reasons why Thor Ragnarok resonates and, and to a degree list. OFIA too, cuz there's some of this stuff bubbling around in there, but especially Ragnarok really like is right  

[02:09:23] Sean: here for me. 

One, one of the things you were saying made me think of that for Thor, Thor, really in Ragnarok you know, he doesn't just destroy Asgard and then sort of rent destroy the empire. He, he destroys what is his empire? Ultimately Odin is dead. This usurper Hela is, is, is trying to take it over and, and sort of reinforc it as an empire. 

And so he, he decides that it's not just about destroying the place of Asgard. It is about changing Asgard and saying that. You know, I'm, I'm destroying this, this place, but also this empire, we are not an empire. And as you say, they become the, the wandering group,  

[02:10:10] Nicole: Right. And obviously Jews didn't have an empire. 

That was, you know, I just, you know, not a analogy only goes so far, but  

[02:10:16] Sean: continu, but it's but, but, but in terms of the confrontation with imperialism, like the end of the movie is the hero destroys the empire in a, in a, in a very, his empire specifically, you know, it's not just like, oh, destroying other empire. 

I'm, I'm looking at this and saying like this fucked, and I'm gonna destroy what is mine? And you know, there's maybe something in there to say that they, the only way to really destroy those is for, is for it to is for, for somebody to, to 

somebody who is the inheritor of it, to be the one to say that we can't have this anymore. There's another, well, yeah, it almost get that step what it's saying, but I don't know.  

[02:11:01] Nicole: It, it reminds me of you know, Race Traitor the journal edited by Noel Ignatiev to who died. I don't think so, but anyway, years ago, okay, well, he, the, the slogan of race trader was treason to whiteness is loyalty to humanity, and the theory was part of what needs to happen. 

uh, To dismantle white supremacy is for white people to basically stop being white, to stop, identify as being white, because whiteness only exists as an oppressive racial class, which at at least if we're talking about the United States of America and the history of race here, fucking fight me. 

That is just true. Yeah. That is just true. It doesn't, it doesn't exist otherwise. How, how and where to do that is a little thorny, cuz I don't necessarily think it's super useful for white people to just be like, but I'm not white because I'm rejecting my whiteness that has its own that's its own problems, but there is something radical and true. 

I believe about that concept. And I kind of feel when I watch Thor Ragnarok, like you're kind of seeing a dramatization of that concept to a degree it's not explicitly and specifically about whiteness, but it is about being a part of 

being a part of, of something that is core to your identity that you come to realize that that thing needs to be destroyed in order for you to be able to move forward. Decent person. Yeah. And with, to not continue to harm others, like whiteness doesn't whiteness doesn't exist without racism. Right. Asgard doesn't exist without imperialism. 

That's I mean, that's part of the lesson of Ragnarok is Odin tried to be like, Hey, we're a kinder, gentler empire now. Yeah. But that can only be sustained so long.  

[02:12:54] Sean: Mm-hmm mm-hmm  

[02:12:57] Nicole: because the past isn't gonna stay buried. No, it doesn and people don't like being oppressed nor do elves, I would guess.  

[02:13:03] Sean: Yeah. 

And I think there, probably something interesting about how this, this film recontextualizes the previous film. So as we were talking about iconography, I mean the obvious like point or, or the connection point on these two films in iconography is Thor. Although, and, and that Wagner builds a Thor, even though. 

And I think there, there's probably something that Ken Russell was saying when he explicitly says, oh, he is like out of a comic book, is that he was probably criticizing the superhero character, Thor, like he was incorporating that like here is you know, for what it was at the time, which is, you know, not too dissimilar from what he is in the movies. 

Now he's a little less silly, but. in terms of like characterization. But I think, you know, the, there, there may have been, he may have had an argument that like, well, it's persisting this threat, this thread of, you know the primacy of, or not primacy, but the, the interest in Norse mythology being related you know, being related to that because you know, Wagner built this, this, this thing, this Thor, which is explicitly supposed to be um, you know, explicitly and, but he fails. 

[02:14:17] Nicole: He's like trying to train the Thor cuz he's like Goldstein, you know, Silverstein like kill, kill, kill, trying to give him the like animal  

[02:14:26] Sean: wants Beerstein.  

[02:14:28] Nicole: A, and then he wakes up and he is like Stein, Stein, and Wagner is like, yes, kill the Stein Stein. He grabs a beer, which also reminded me of Thor because there's a funny scene in Thor, Ragnarok, where he's drinking a Stein of beer with, with Dr. 

Strange. And, and it keeps refilling.  

[02:14:42] Sean: It keeps refilling, but it's it's, I mean, I think, you know, we've got that connection. I think part of what he was doing, what Russell was doing was he's like, okay, well, Wagner, didn't really like do Thor, but he had Siegfried. And you know, there's a, there's a thread there, there's a line there between them in the ring,  

[02:15:01] Nicole: the ring cycle, which I'm not super familiar with, but I'm  

[02:15:04] Sean: not, I read about it. 

I've read about what the storyline is and it's about and actually, you know, what this, this is relevant to, to to both of these films. So the ring, the ring cycle broadly follows, or at least part of it follows part of it follows the relationship between Siegfried this hero and, and a valry named Brun Brunhilda, the character that Tessa Thompson plays. 

And this is something that, you know, we can talk about. And recontextualize valry is based on a comic book, char roughly, but loosely based on a comic book character, which they then separated after the movie came out called Brun hill, who's based on the ring cycle character. And you know, I think that there's. 

There's probably a thread that Ken Russell is saying, it's like, okay, well, Wagner put this into a popular imagination. And so that's why we have this and there's, these are all connected, you know? And then we have Thor in in Ragnarok. So we've got those, you know, close connections there.  

[02:16:06] Nicole: And mm-hmm, not to interrupt, but one of the things about not only Ragnarok, but the Thor series in general that made a lot of Nazis mad was about the casting of some of the characters and specifically casting black actors. 

Yeah.  

[02:16:20] Sean: They really came like  

[02:16:21] Nicole: that. Also. Like let's just make a point that Thor in the MCU is a space Viking from another planet. There's, he's got nothing to do with like Vikings from Norway. No.  

[02:16:36] Sean: Other than, other than some  

[02:16:37] Nicole: inspiration. Exactly. Which is part of why I'm like, yeah, this is part of my heritage, but like  

[02:16:41] Sean: the thing that's interesting is something and, you know, we're, we're, we're kind of getting into the, I mean that this, these all inter inform each other what we're talking about, but like, what's interesting. 

And I, I have to, I would have to dig up the thing I was reading before is there's scholarship about north mythology. North mythology is one of the European mythologies that we actually do not have a lot of documentation of because when they converted to Christianity, they destroyed a lot of things. And they also, you know, a lot of this took place when there wasn't a lot of written language. 

It's also one of the few of these mythologies that actually persisted as an actual form of worship until the 20th century. It's an interest like now I don't mean just like Nazis. I mean, like there were parts of, you know, the Scandinavian region where small villages, like that was still part of their religion uh, religious practices. 

Uh, But we do not have a lot of information about them. And scholarship is fairly limited on it. We only have two written sources, the pros edit and the um, uh, and the poetic edit, I think are what they're called. Uh, But there is some scholarly theorizing that north mythology has its origins uh, in. Uh, And closer to India there are some threads and connections going back to, to some, some religions over there and, you know, like, like most mythologies you know, some academics try to try to look at it and say like, okay, there there's, there's a, there's a story here that is maybe about history that is maybe about the history. 

And there, there's a lot of, there's a lot of little clues here about how it may be from further east or yeah, east, it may be from further east in into Asia to Southeast Asia where the origins of Norse mythology come from. It also and there's other fun stuff. Like there's, there's a theory that actually Loki and Odin were originally the same, the same character that were divided over the years into, into separate into separate things. 

Um, It's also interesting to a degree that, that, that the, that there's a, that there's a fascist that there, I mean, they're usually not, you know, smart about context and history uh, but that there's a Nazi interest in this for how flexible. Some of Norse mythology is when it comes to things like gender roles, low key himself being a very good example of that. 

We see in the movies in Thor, we actually see three of three of Loki's children from the mythology, not his children in the movies. There is Hela, there is fender. Her pet Wolf is actually her brother. And then there's why do you know that? And then there's also slip near who is we don't see, we only see in the first Thor movie Odin's horse with the eight legs, which Loki is not slept nears father, but actually slept nears mother because Loki is gender fluid. 

And  

[02:19:59] Nicole: they, they barely fucking get into that in any of the Marvel stuff, but they do start to touch on it or hint, and it, they, they play with it, which sadly are crumbs enough for us hearkening back to some of what we were complaining about earlier about uh, Marvel and Disney and how they'll, they'll only go so far into giving you some edgy queerness in their films. 

It has to be something that can be easily cut out without messing up the rest of the plot. So they won't ever be that much of a part of the plot, which is part of why I honestly. Fuck Disney. Yeah. Like just fuck Disney. But but, but I mean, it's also, that's part of, I love the Loki character. Mm-hmm and I like Tom Holston's portrayal of the Marvel Loki. 

That's, you know, part of what got me to this movie in the first place, because like back in the Avengers movies and stuff, which I have not rewatched, cuz they're not that good. I mm-hmm always really liked him and was like, I'll follow this guy. Yeah. Like I wanna see what this guy's doing and whatever. So mm-hmm  

[02:21:01] Sean: yeah, no, I agree. 

And I think one of the things that they have done well with that character and it plays out actually very well in Ragnarok is that Loki is low key is a trickster character, you know, in the very traditional mythological sense in which he is gender fluid. He is you know, he's a, shapeshifter, he's, he's also fluid in terms of his you know, alignments as far as concepts of good and evil, you know it's yes. 

And in, in, in many ways, like, you know, we, we, he is Bugs Bunny Bugs Bunny is the same character who is also gender fluid. And you know, these trickster characters are something that I think are core to a lot of mythology for, for a, a good reason, not just for being sort of a semi antagonist or, you know, sometimes they're the clown whatever it is, but they are they are very important, I think because, and, and we are, they are lost in some ways in our end, some of our modern society because the only like good example I can think of that's modern and not pulled from something else is Bugs Bunny 

Um, is, is they teach about gray areas. They teach about that. Things are not, you know, things are not a, or B in certain respects. Like it, it, you know, when that becomes a core of your cultural identity is that we have a God, or we have a character that is core here. That is not one or the other that I think that that allow, that can allow cultures and can allow people to understand better. 

gray areas or when things don't fit in a box. And I'm just making the shit up off the top of my head right now that wasn't a point I wanted to make at one point, but now I'm like tricksters and I wanna talk about bugs bunny.  

[02:22:55] Nicole: Also another example, I don't think you ever got, I don't know if you ever watched this at all and if you did, I don't think you got far enough, but Netflix is shero the double trouble character. 

It's another gender fluid trickster. Okay. Yeah. Who, a lot of the stuff you're talking about definitely applies  

[02:23:11] Sean: as well. Yeah. And I think that, you know, and, and just to kind of get in, you know, the iconography and the, and the art and mythology and culture stuff is all throughout both of these is, I mean, I think when we talked about, and I hope you don't mind if I kind of move on to, to this point about transforming it is one of the things that I find really interesting about like, you know, first about First about Lisztomania, you know, is, is really what we already talking about is this Russell is concerned with art, and I'm gonna read this, this relatively long quote. 

That's kind of before a bit about transforming art and myth uh, from this article from film comment from 1975 called Russell mania by Steven Farber. And I've got a couple quotes from this, but I wanna read this one first, the sense of horror and outrage in this section of the film which he's referring to the end of the film does not come from Russell's feeling about Hitler. 

His concern about the abuses of art gives the film. Its passion. Russell wants to see the connections between list and Wagner not just the family connection or the musical influence of one on the other, but the influence of lists flamboyant commercialism on Wagner's megalomania, the cult of the superstar, which is what we were talking about a bit ago with Marilyn Manson leads to the more sinister cult of the Superman lists screaming fans are the same girls who stand respectfully in front of Wagner's tomb. 

Russell's point is not simply that hysterical teenagers are incipient fascists. What he is really saying in Lisztomania is that once the artist surrenders to the rule of the marketplace, he is violated the natural order of the universe and release demons that cannot be controlled. There's more from this article about about the truth of the connections between list and Wagner and Hitler and the rise of Nazi-ism. 

And then there's this piece, the Nazi scenes are not meant to be taken. Literally they express Russell's worst fears of what can happen when art is perverted by show business and political fanaticism. The paranoia in this view of the artist's responsibility is bizarre, but there is something irresistibly romantic and Russell's concern for the artist's integrity and a world where everything has been DEPA, debased, and devalued Russell still envisions art as the central creative act. 

That brings order to a chaotic universe. The fact that most of his films examine the artist's betrayal of his vocation cannot obscure Russell's belief in the moral importance of art. His exalted view of art seems slightly insane and rather breathtaking. And this reminds me of a thing I've told you about. 

And I don't think you've watched this one yet, but Russell's other biopic on, Mahler  

[02:25:58] Nicole: no, I, I, I know it's on Criterion and I, I will cuz I also I am no classical music bus, neither, but I, I, I like moer to degree. I, if I'm like gonna pick a composer I've I have, I, I enjoy a smaller, I have intentionally gone to. 

You know, see Muller's music perform. So I'm certainly very interested in Ken Russel biopic of Moler. And I know it has some shared themes with this one and  

[02:26:26] Sean: some, obviously some watches characters as well. Mm-hmm Wagner is appears. And that's this, the, there is a sequence that is about modeller essentially giving up his Judaism. 

That is, that is sort of hints of what, of, of this sort of approach that he'll take in Lisztomania. She is basically dressed like a Dori with a big swastika on her leather, and he's being forced to like eat pork and do some other things. And in his sort of in this sort of representational, this fantastical approach to depicting that, and it's a criticism that, and I don't even think it's a necessary Russell saying like, oh, well you gave ju Judaism. 

And that is how you betrayed yourself. I think it's that, that is a representation of giving up his artistic integrity and much like the castration scene. It's about  

[02:27:24] Nicole: to say just like the penis guillotine,  

[02:27:27] Sean: the penis guillotine, like it's all penis  

[02:27:28] Nicole: guillotine, eating pork.  

[02:27:31] Sean: and the, I think the transformational nature of art and mythology and culture, like in how they can transform things is a big part of Lisztomania, but also how they are transformed, you know? 

Yeah. And what we, what we were just talking about, but Wagner, and he's taking Norris mythology and with, through his ring cycle, which loosely interfaces with, with north mythology, Odin is a character. And although I think they use WOdin or Wotan one of the other names for him and then, you know, there's the Valkyrie Broomhilde uh, and the um, and the, and the hero Siegfried in these or, you know, his way of trans of, of transforming that. 

And then it's being used because it's this corruption well,  

[02:28:15] Nicole: he's weaponizing it. He's, he's weaponizing, Norse mythology through his corrupted art, right. He's like turning, you know, this into, to a weapon of an of anti-Semitism, even though it's like Odin and, and Thor and all these characters don't have anything to do with hating Jews. 

No, they've got nothing to do with that, but being like, Hey, we're gonna reclaim, you know, this area in history that we've decided we, we have rights to and hold it up in opposition to, you know yeah. Who have been, decided to be the other.  

[02:28:53] Sean: And, and the, the thing. Oh, go ahead.  

[02:28:56] Nicole: I just wanted to say I I'm not, I, I wanna keep talking about this. 

I just wanted to bring Ragnarok into the discussion of the role of art mm-hmm in molding culture, maintaining cetera word salad coming outta my mouth. But I wanted to talk about music specifically and art more generally in Ragnar as well, which it's not, it is not nearly the, the focus in the way it is in Lisztomania. 

Cuz like you said, Lisztomania is primarily concerned with questions of art and artists and the fascism and all that is just a vehicle for exploring yeah. You know, the power of art for good or evil and all that. But I noted when, cuz I watched these two this week and I watched them back to back. I watched Lisztomania and then I watched Ragnarok right afterwards. 

And that was a great way mm-hmm to watch them because it made all of the parallels all the more obvious. And one of the things that I hadn't really ever thought about with Ragnarok before is like one, these are both movies that use like synthesizer music mm-hmm in it's it's anachronistic en Lisztomania it's not in Ragnarok, but it's also, but it's. 

Surprising mm-hmm like the score, the very score of Thor Ragnarok has all this synth in it. That's like super awesome, but it doesn't sound like other superhero movie scores. No, it's it. I mean, this is part of why I love this movie. Cause it's just on every level everyone was bringing their a game, you know, like not just the script, not just the acting, the characters of the story. 

It's it's the sound, you know, the score, the sound design, the art direction, the costumes, the makeup, everything was just like and, and the score was great like that, but also the thing I hadn't paid as much attention to is how the grand master is always like he, when he's giving Thor his like rundown of here's the deal on Sakaar and here's why I'm so great. 

And this is how things are gonna be, fuck you. You're stuck. He's like playing his little synthesizer the whole time. He's making this little like synthe company meant to his horrific spiel and like there's ways in which, and, and that comes up. Like he, they escape on the party ship that has like music that plays as, as well as fireworks and, and other things. 

But there's a lot with Jeff Goldblum noodling around on a synthesizer mm-hmm in, in four Ragnarok and doing it as part of his, what I'm gonna call kind of wizard of Oz act. And that reminded me a little bit of when. Wagner turns a guitar into a gun. Mm-hmm at the end of Lisztomania, it's not as smacking you in the face about it. 

It's not as much of the main point, but it's a thing that's kind of happening in the background of, of kind of the weaponizing yeah. Of music and art more broadly. The other very obvious thing to point to is the scene we already talked about where Hela points to the paintings. Yeah. You know, and how like these, these paintings, someone painted a myth and those paintings of the myths when they are physically destroyed in the film that, you know corresponds to the breaking of the myths power. 

Over the people and the empire, like when she destroys the painting, she destroys the myth.  

[02:32:19] Sean: Right? Yeah. And, and I think, you know, and, and both of these are very much like, like dealing with that, like cultural mythology of like who we are like that Wagner's building one that's vog, that's what he's trying to do. 

He's trying to build his conception of this or a conception of it, you know, in the movie, it's his conception of it. He was part of something larger in reality. Right.  

[02:32:41] Nicole: And it's, and it corresponds in, in Ragnarok to the changing of what Asgard is, Asgard was an empire, the empire is destroyed. Mm-hmm Asgard is now a bunch of  

[02:32:51] Sean: refugees. 

Yeah. And so, and so, you know, there are different ends of, but it's the same, it's the same, you know, there's the art to it. There's, there's the construction or deconstruction of, of, of these cultural mythologies. I mean, and one of, one of the things that I, you know, I think when we initially talked about doing this, one of the things that I definitely wanted to talk about and was curious about interested in was the fact that, you know, Lisztomania is the, we have Wagner, he takes nos mythology. 

He uses it in sort of this creation of Nazim and then, and this antisemitism and then, and the. And then Lisztomania is sourced in a different repurposing of those mythological depictions. And all of that in that, you know, the comic book form was, was, was created by the artist and the writer Stanley Jack Kirby, Jewish men,  

[02:33:53] Nicole: Ragnarok. 

I think you said  

Lisztomania but, 

[02:33:55] Sean: oh, sorry, sorry. Sorry if Thor. Yeah, no, no Thor, the comics, Thor, Thor, the comics, like it was, you know, the source for Ragnarok Jewish men taking this and a little bit of a Korean dude. Right. And then, and then, so yes. And then, so when we get into the story for Ragnarok, right? 

Well, we'll Ragnarok. The movie is directed by a Jewish ma Maori man. And part of the story, which is it's based very loosely, very, very loosely on the planet, Hulk storyline, which was from the early two thousands, which was written by Greg pack. Who's a Korean American person that didn't involve Thor at all, but like the basis for Ragnarok is really coming from a multicultural. 

Sort of repurposing of certain iconography, repurposing of certain mythological figures and concepts. As I said before, the valry character in Ragnarok, very loosely based on the valry character from the comics who is Brun hill, who is inspired by the character from the ring cycle, who is said to be within the context of the comic books, the inspiration for that, they took it and they said, we're gonna have a woman of color play this character. 

Now she became a different character in the books and they're separate so that they could have both the, but regardless, like they said, okay, we're gonna do this and we're going to make it for more people. We're going to say like, this is not about your cultural mythology and your cultural conception, which is honestly, as I said, like probably a historical, I think it's the, they, I think, you know, not only do they believe that Norse mythology is sourced from further east, but also that Arians themselves, the entire concept of Arians are actually. 

Indian. I think that there there's a recontextualization there is taking this, there is transforming it and that these things are transformed and that the, this art is both something that we transform and that can be transformational and can be positive or negative. I think that the, the, you know, ultimately that ultimately Russell is saying that it has a great uh, positive transf transformational possibilities in the finale of the film with the rainbow lasers of love. 

And then I think that, you know, I think that there is something positive about Thor, Ragnarok in general, for the way that even in this mainstream film that, you know, doesn't push it too far, but it's there, you know, is confronting the concept of imperialism. And we're definitely, you know, we're definitely talking about America or any other country, but like, you know, for us, like Ragnarok is about America and destroying the, the, the cultural mythology of what we are, which is something that is ongoing right now. 

And it, it, I think it feeds that, and it feeds a, a, a thought process for people behind that maybe, you know, it may not be, you know, a great revelation for, for, for everybody or some people who see it, but I think it contributes.  

[02:37:03] Nicole: Yeah. And, and it's, and, and it's also about New Zealand and Australia, right? 

Yeah. And, and there are some pretty relevant things that we didn't talk about. Some of this stuff as much, we'll, we'll put a bunch of articles. There's about, there's a lot of articles. We've already talked a lot where people talk. Yeah. And specifically, I wanted to talk about some of the stuff that I haven't seen as much written about already. 

And so I'm just gonna briefly touch on the fact that like, yeah, many people have commented about how much uh, Maori and some other indigenous colors, symbols, imagery, mm-hmm language, yeah. Is woven into, into Thor, Ragnarok, especially on Sakaar. There's been a lot, a lot written about that. So I don't want to spend too much time going into it. 

Cause I think a lot of people have very well covered this and talked about it, but like a lot of the ships specifically um, the, the ship they escape on the grand masters party ship that they go back to Asgard on is the colors of the Australian Aboriginal flag. Valkyrie's ship is the colors of the Maori flag. 

Like there's a lot of symbolism going on in there. And I think um,  

I I've talked a bit about like taua Titi being Jewish and the relevance of that to this material. Obviously the fact that he's Maori um, coming from people who have, you know, had their lands, colonized and been oppressed under colonization in New Zealand and Australia, like that's super relevant to all of this as well. 

[02:38:43] Sean: And I think his location having. that as a part of his history, as well as some of the stuff that we've talked about about, you know, what the history of Jewish people has been over the past couple hundred years, like that's a good position to be coming to the material in the Ragnarok script from mm-hmm , which he didn't write that script. 

No, but he's definitely coming to it for me. Yeah.  

[02:39:06] Nicole: And he brought a lot, he built out, I think a lot of the meaning of the movie through some of these visuals mm-hmm and, and, and things like that. God, I had a fucking point I wanted to make and now I'm spacing on, well,  

[02:39:19] Sean: I mean, I mean, he's, he's taking his own, like, you know, this, these colors and these ideas and he's introducing them and, and, and, and expanding on expanding on these concepts expanding on sort of a, or, or weaving in, I guess, more different cultural relevance to say something broadly. 

[02:39:42] Nicole: So, yeah. And another thing that I, I wanted to briefly touch on that I think is related to why this movie is so good is it's one of very few Marvel movies that does not have any us military personnel or weapons mm-hmm or anything like that in it at all. Cuz I guess there's, you know, there's technically  

[02:40:04] Sean: scour has like. 

Machine guns.  

[02:40:07] Nicole: He has machine guns, but they're not us military machine guns, because this is one of the very few, no, cuz this is one of the very few Marvel movies that was not made in cooperation with the military. There was no, because you know, they're like, Hey, we'll give, you can use this stuff, but we also get approval over your scripts. 

Right. Right. And I, I don't know if this is, this is true, but I did read that. That's also part of why um, Waititi was able to put a lot of improvisation in this movie mm-hmm and kind of tweak a lot of things because normally there's tighter control over the scripts when these things go to shoot because the military needs to fucking approve anything. 

So people are really, you know, anytime there's a change like that could create an issue down the line, blah da, cuz we definitely need to have this military partnership to make these superhero movies. And this one didn't have that. And it's not that it didn't have it. Cuz the military was like, this is too radical for us or something like that. 

It just was never on the table cuz it's yeah, it doesn't need to be right. Yeah, because it doesn't need to be, but that also is part of why it was able to be as good as it is. I think because most of the other ones you just don't have that kind of creative freedom. Mm-hmm cause it's baked in, you're doing a Marvel movie. 

Well guess what? It's it's in partnership with the army, you know mm-hmm like a fucking captain America's civil war is the greatest movie ever joined the. Mm, basically is all the harken back to our Josie and the pussy cats. Mm-hmm episode, cuz these movies are, and we haven't talked about this much and a lot of inks spilled on this already. 

We don't need to talk about it much, but one of the issues with Marvel movies is that they are military propaganda. Mm-hmm , that's not my analysis. That's just a fact they are done in conjunction with the military and the military gets input into how they are portrayed, which is part of why you'll notice like portrayed pretty well. 

That limits what these films can do, just like writing them and shooting them in a way so that you can cut all of the gay content out and not lose out on any of that sweet, sweet international market money. 

Right. That compromises what these films can be. It limits them. Yeah, absolutely. And this, this is the rare example where, because of some loosened limitations, as well as whatever, like perfect storm of stuff, they, they were able to do a lot with this one, but I, I don't anticipate seeing that many more examples of that. 

Like there aren't black Panther also does a lot of interesting stuff that has some problematic stuff in terms of the role of the CIA in it. That's a little bit more traditional Marvel in my issues with it, but that also has a lot. Genuinely cool. Opening things up politically a bit. Yeah. Stuff in it. 

I don't have the highest expectations for Black Panther. Two Wakanda Forever, nor do I have the highest expectations for Thor love and thunder though. I will totally see both movies. Yeah, but this was, this was a special one. And I'm sure we could talk about it day. We could, but we've talked for a while. 

A, we talked for a long time. We talked for a long time guys, join our Patreon. If you wanna see the whole episode,  

[02:43:16] Sean: the whole episode, the whole Shebang. Uh, So yeah, so uh, I think, I think we've, we, we we've said many things. I think we could both probably talk about both of these movies for a lot longer,  

[02:43:29] Nicole: but we could, we can save that for the many episodes where we'll be like, oh, and I forgot this and I forgot this, cuz there's gonna be a million of those, cuz we've, we've got to say about these movies, but let us know what you think about these movies. 

You know, let us, let us know why we're right. Let us know why we're wrong. Let us know what we didn't think of and let us us know what you thought of us.  

[02:43:49] Sean: And we'll talk about stuff in a mini episode with whatever you guys have to say about it. Um, Let us know. Thank you  

for  

[02:43:55] Nicole: joining. Thank you for joining us as always, and, and now go away. 

[02:44:00] Film clip: Go away. All right. 

[02:44:19] Sean: The Celluloid mirror is a four mile circus production hosted by Nicole Solomon. Sean Manion. Our theme music is twisted by Kevin McLeod. You can hear more from kevinMcLeod@incompetent.film music.io. Please take a few moments to rate and review the celluloid mirror on your podcast platform of choice. It really helps with discoverability. 

If you have questions or comments about what you heard on the show or suggestions for future episodes, feel free to email us at info at 4milecircus.com or seek us out on social media. We are at four mile circus on Twitter. And Instagram. Want more from the celluloid mirror, Sean and Nicole. Join our patreon@patreon.com slash four mile circus. 

You'll get early access to episodes, uncut video of our recording sessions, access to our discord server and much more. To learn more about everything we do visit us@fourmilecircus.com. 

[02:45:23] Film clip: I ended up in that home there's there was another, 

it happens when the  

story dies.  

The evil is set free. 

I have to return some video tapes.