[00:00:00] Nicole: A young artist is inspired by one of the muses of Greek mythology to help an old clarinet player open a new club in an abandoned building. A young nurse is inspired by Jesus to commit a little soul saving, and self-mutilation along with other Eerie endeavors. What could Robert Greenwald's Xanadu and Rose Glass' Sant Maud possibly have in common? That's what we're discussing in this episode of The Celluloid Mirror.

[00:00:33] Film Clip: I mean, what do you think you think they stand a chance or you're on their side? Who are you betting on?

[00:00:44] Magic mirror on the wall who is the fairest one of all? 

[00:00:52] Look at these lies. 

[00:00:55] One shall stand one shall fall.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:02] Even if one of them survives.

[00:01:06] The only way to stop him is make another movie.

[00:01:16] Sean: Welcome to the celluloid mirror. I am one of your hosts, Sean Mannion 

[00:01:20] Nicole: and I am Nicole Solomon. The other one of your hosts on the celluloid mirror, we take two films and look at what they reflect about each other, the audience and our culture at large. And today we are talking about rose glasses, Saint mod, as well as robert Greenwald's Xanadu.

[00:01:39] Sean: We'll start by giving a brief synopsis of each film, discuss our response to the film's critical response, and then dive in on what the films say about each other. But first we have a very special guest on today's episode. Nicole, did you notice we're not alone? 

[00:01:57] Nicole: Oh, my God [00:02:00] surprise. This is terrifying.

[00:02:03] Alanah: Olivia Newton, John. 

[00:02:05] Nicole: Got it. Does this mean we're all gonna be mused and, and have our creativity just, just swell. And this is amazing. So, 

[00:02:15] Alanah: or we're all going to get animated by Don bluff? I don't know either one is good, either 

[00:02:19] Nicole: one. I take either one. Um, but thank you so much for appearing for appearing here.

[00:02:26] Um, to Alanah Rafferty, who is a filmmaker producer, voiceover artist, and host of the blev? The BLEV. Oh, host. Oh, thank you. I was like, that's not the name of your podcast, Alana. I got very confused because I did not prepare for this podcast. Thank you. Most of the believe podcast, girl presses play her latest film.

[00:02:53] Fraud will be making its debut at the Tribeca film festival on June 10th. And the next season of her [00:03:00] podcast starts streaming this September. She will also be starring as the lead in my and Sean's animated horror comedy reveal. Thank you so much for joining us here today. Alanah for 

[00:03:12] Alanah: having me I'm super pumped to be here.

[00:03:15] Nicole: Yay! Uh, we were on Sean and I were on Alana's podcast a little while ago, talking about blood simple and a woman, a gun and a noodle shop. Ah, 

[00:03:26] Alanah: that was a fun one. That was a really fun one. 

[00:03:28] Nicole: It was very fun. Um, for our listeners Alana's show girl, bleh girl presses play is similar in some ways to the celluloid mirror and that it's, um, she's taking two films and discussing them together, but that yours, I think is less about two films.

[00:03:43] You would never expect going together. Um, and more you've been doing like films and their remakes or 

[00:03:50] Alanah: Yeah, season two was like films and their remakes. And then season one was more of, kind of about like exploring each genre, just for film folks who don't [00:04:00] necessarily have. Like a working definition of each genre for for film specifically.

[00:04:05] So I like to keep it just generally film critique, because then it kind of allows the podcast to be like, whatever we want it to be, if that makes sense. So I try to keep it loose, keep it fun. Keep it film nerdy. 

[00:04:19] Nicole: You have any, uh, little previews for season three and what we can expect your particular angle to be.

[00:04:25] Alanah: Um, season three has been announced. It's going to be all about superhero films and the history of superhero films, which goes back a lot earlier than you think it would have. It actually goes back to pre-World war II with this film, the shadow, which was kind of fun to start digging into and researching cause it the shadow basically serves as the main basis for Batman.

[00:04:47] So it was really interesting to watch that film. And then I think like a week and a half later I went and saw Matt Reeves is the Batman. And to see the kind of parallels between the two, I thought was really, really interesting. And also [00:05:00] just seeing a lot of films I'd never seen before. And I know this is crazy.

[00:05:03] I've never seen Richard Donner Superman until this year, which my boyfriend was like, you what? Um, but yeah, we're just going to be kind of like tracing the history of specifically superhero films and seeing how that kind of affects not only the way that superhero films are made, but also just how films are made and how.

[00:05:23] People's expectations for films are kind of changed because of how, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Prolific they've become in the last, I'd say 20 to 30 years. 

[00:05:33] Film Clip: Absolutely. In many ways, they're the dominant form of commercial 

[00:05:37] Nicole: film right 

[00:05:38] Alanah: now. Yeah. I read somewhere. I think James Gunn said this, that they're almost like the westerns of our day.

[00:05:45] Like how, in once upon a time in Hollywood, everyone, and their mother is doing a Western and now these days it's like everyone and their mother's doing a Marvel or DC film. 

[00:05:53] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a very interesting point that I will not [00:06:00] go 

[00:06:00] down a rabbit hole about because, um, we're, we're not 

[00:06:04] here today to discuss, um, superhero films and westerns fascinating as I'm finding that parallel right now.

[00:06:11] Um, we're, we're here to talk about Xanadu and St. Maud, right? 

[00:06:16] Alanah: Yeah. We're talking about supernatural, not superheroes today. 

[00:06:19] Nicole: Supernatural, not superheroes. Um, should we do synopses of these films? 

[00:06:26] Sean: Are you desperate to do one of the synopses Nicole? 

[00:06:28] Nicole: I would like to, despite the fact that I just watched both of these films last night as a double feature to prep for this podcast, I would love to not do the synopsis of Xanadu cause I do not want to be responsible for explaining what the fuck happens in that movie.

[00:06:46] So 

[00:06:46] Sean: very simple. I can, I can explain. 

[00:06:50] Nicole: Sure you want to explain Xanadu Sean, I can since you're in Xanadu right now. Apparently our listeners 

[00:06:57] can't see Xanadu. 

[00:06:58] Sean: My heart is 

[00:06:59] [00:07:00] Xanadu uh, 

[00:07:00] Nicole: Sean has, uh, for our listeners at home, a, uh, max headroom zoom background 

[00:07:05] right now that looks quite a bit like, uh, parts of Xanadu just so everyone knows.

[00:07:11] Sean: And if people are Patreon patrons, they can see it. When we do the, when we, when we release the video form of the podcast, would you like to, would you like to explain, uh, Saint Maud to people? Uh, 

[00:07:23] Alanah: Sure why not? All right. I'll, I'll, 

[00:07:26] Sean: I'll launch into Xanadu and then you can, uh, take off and that with, um, with, uh, St. Maud so, uh, Xanadu is, uh, about a young fellow, a young artist named Sonny. And, um, he seems really frustrated with that. He couldn't make it on his own as just an artist, um, because apparently it didn't just magically happen and he has to work for it. So he, resentfully is like, uh, [00:08:00] going into work where he, where he paints recreation's of, uh, of album art, uh, large to be hung on the side of buildings, I guess.

[00:08:09] I think it's an advertising thing. So, you know, he's really, he's really upset about, uh, getting paid for, for that. And of course he can't do his own art on the side while getting paid apparently. Anyway, uh, so we got this kid sunny and, uh, one day he's he's he's frustrated. He tears up, uh, some work that he was doing that actually looked quite nice, throws it into the wind and that somehow activates a painting on the side of, uh, you know, down an alley of all of the muses of Greek mythology.

[00:08:44] And they all leave the painting among them is, um, Olivia Newton, John, who is Kira and, uh, sunny, uh, subsequently, uh, sees her while he's out and [00:09:00] about, and is, uh, or she rolls up to him on her roller skates and kisses him and then rolls away. And then he starts chasing after there's this mysterious girl. Um, and, uh, somewhere not long after that, he is on the beach and runs across a clarinet player, uh, named, uh, Danny Mick, uh, Danny McBride, I think is what his name?

[00:09:25] Maguire, Danny Maguire, 

[00:09:28] Danny. McBride's the actor. Isn't me. Yeah. So, so Danny, Danny McGuire, um, this clarinet player, who's just hanging out in the beach, playing his clarinet. They become Pals. And um, in the beginning here, Sonny keeps seeing Olivia Newton, John on her roller skates. And then as he becomes pals with Danny, he sees in a, in a old, the book Danny has of his days being in a big band, that there is a girl from [00:10:00] back then who was a singer in the band who looks exactly like Kira.

[00:10:03] Anyway, he and Danny become good friends. And then he finally. Catches up to Kira, uh, and they have a very sort of flirtatious relationship, especially as she leads him to this old abandoned building. And, um, and later as he's hanging out with Danny, Danny just mentions how he used to run clubs and, oh, be nice to do a club again, but we have to find a place and it clicks for, uh, it clicks for Sonny.

[00:10:39] Hey, I found a place there's this abandoned building. So inspired by Kira. Uh, he's in love with Kira is inspired by her. Uh, they, um, uh, they convert this abandoned building into a new club called Xanadu. Um, and just before, it's about to open, they're about [00:11:00] to have their big, uh, their big opening night cure reveals.

[00:11:04] I can't stick around, man. Um, I'm a muse. Um, and like, I, I have to go, I have to go be a muse for other people and Sonny, um, doesn't like that. And he says, no, you gotta stay. You gotta stay with me, blah, blah, blah. Um, especially after she proves that no, I'm really a supernatural being using, uh, the dictionary.

[00:11:27] Um, where she inserts words into the dictionary, um, to, to say like, do you believe me now? Uh, and then makes the TV talk to him and he's still a little dubious. Um, he, uh, he follows her into that painting on the, um, on the, that I mentioned before on the, on the, in the alley, uh, he rollerskates into it. Um, cause that's what happens if you roll it kids, if you roller skate into a painting on a [00:12:00] wall, you will enter the painting children.

[00:12:02] So that's

[00:12:03] Alanah: And don't wear a helmet while doing so. 

[00:12:05] Sean: No, no, don't otherwise it won't work. If you wear a helmet, when you rollerskate into the wall, you'll just you, it will stop, it will stop it. So roll into the wall. And, uh, so he goes into this neon heaven of sorts, uh, where he tries to convince Kira that she should come back with him.

[00:12:23] And by convince, I mean, he just sort of like insists in a very sort of selfish and childlike way, uh, where he doesn't actually make a point ever. He's just like, no, you have to come with me cause we love each other. Um, and, uh, Yeah, let me tell you, like rollerskating into, uh, into a girl's parents' house and insisting that she has to come with you because you love each other.

[00:12:49] Does not usually go over very well. Um, like it just, and her parents show up on, um, who are not [00:13:00] explicitly identified as, uh, w where they don't really identify as Zeus and Hera anymore. Although I think he's like, are you Zeus? And he's and the voice just says, ah, yeah, I don't know, names, whatever. What's a name, use those 

[00:13:15] Nicole: old names anymore.

[00:13:18] Sean: And they don't understand time. Uh, which in fairness, I feel like if you're that old, especially after these two years, that makes a lot of sense, like. Oh, yeah. They're like a million years old. What exactly was the past? And what is the future? What are these things? I don't know. Um, they're kind of not really convinced.

[00:13:40] Um, but then Kira sings a song and they say, let her go, let her go. And it ends with the opening night of Xanadu and Danny who I don't, I didn't mention is Gene Kelly, who's just dancing up a storm and doing his whole gene Kelly thing, the whole movie, uh, gene Kelly on roller skates [00:14:00] and, um, all these and the big opening night for Xanadu and Kira is there for that.

[00:14:08] But then she disappears and Sonny's a little, a little sad until there's a waitress that looks just like Kira and he starts talking to her and that's the end of the movie, or that is a, uh, very squished down version of that movie. So Xanadu. 

[00:14:25] Nicole: Wow. Thank you, Sean. That was beautiful. 

[00:14:29] Alanah: Oh, there's no way I'm topping that.

[00:14:31] And granted, I might be a little more sparse with my plot just because I feel like there's more to spoil in St. Mod. So it might be a little less detailed than Xanadu because Xanadu doesn't and can't really be spoiled if we're being honest. Cause there's not much of an actual plot to be spoiled. 

[00:14:52] Nicole: No, there wasn't much of an actual 

[00:14:53] script at all.

[00:14:55] In fact, which we'll talk about. Um, 

[00:14:57] I do want to know you, um, [00:15:00] having a sparse synopsis is great and also don't worry about spoiling things. I'll say my little thing now about listeners. We're we're gonna talk about 

[00:15:09] these two films. We're gonna probably spoil a lot of things from the film. So 

[00:15:15] if you don't want spoilers for 1980s Xanadu and 2019, I believe Saint

[00:15:22] Maud you can pause it now and uh, go watch the films. But I think, I think, um, I think you would still enjoy the films, even if you heard our conversation about them first. 

[00:15:34] Alanah: I agree. And actually I think with Saint Maud especially you might be able to like, just take it in a little bit more because it's actually, this would be an interesting film to pair with something, but I recently rewatched Vox Lux, which is also kind of about this spiritual ties to, um, artistic endeavors.

[00:15:52] And I do think when, you know, what's going to happen in a film, especially a very dense film like that, or like St Maud there's a little bit [00:16:00] more. Okay. I can notice the details. I can kind of follow along with what's going on and not have to be so. Putting everything together. So I'll just spoil some stuff.

[00:16:10] So St. Maud is the feature directorial debut of filmmaker Rose Glass, and we'll get more into what the first scene is actually about. But basically the film opens with our character mod played by Morfith. Morfydd I think it's more fifth, more fifth Clark, and she is in scrubs and she's covered in blood and she just looks like some shit just went down that she's not able to process.

[00:16:40] And she sees a bug crawling on the floor that seems to have some sort of like connection or tie to her. And then after that scene, we cut to probably like a few years later, or some time later where she's still working as an at-home nurse. And she gets [00:17:00] assigned to the retired dancer. Amanda played by Jennifer L, who is in the last stages of some pretty gnarly cancer.

[00:17:10] And as she cares for her and they start to get to know each other a little bit more, they start to maybe relate a little bit about their pursuits of their different, I guess you would say callings for Maud. It's more of her religious inclinations for Amanda. It's how important art and her dancing was to her.

[00:17:30] And at one point they do seem to share some sort of uh it's kind of seems to be likening it to like an orgasmic sort of religious embodying experience, which mod tends to have quite a few of throughout the film. And then that either right before, or right after that is when a quote-unquote friend of Amanda comes to visit a lot and mods just like not a fan of [00:18:00] hers.

[00:18:00] And we honestly can't really tell if it's because it's two women being together or because she believes that Amanda soul needs to be saved. This woman of the night probably is kind of like distracting Amanda from getting that soul saving. So their relationship definitely becomes like more and more intense as Maud kind of zeroes in, on saving Amanda.

[00:18:24] And I think Amanda starts to get just like how much mod wants to involve herself in her own life. And we also finally get about halfway through the film, a sense of what happened in the beginning, which was that while she was performing CPR on an older patient, because the older patients bones were just too brittle, her entire rib cage collapsed into herself, which honestly would scarier is apparently that's like a fairly common thing when you were giving CPR on older people is because they've had a certain level of [00:19:00] osteoporosis.

[00:19:01] Their muscle density. Can't really like protect the body as much. Like there's been times where people are giving CPR to older patients and the entire body just caves in on itself. But anyway, you find out about that happening to her when she was in residency and how much it traumatized her and how finding religion kind of gave mod, who we find out from an old friend from that residency is actually named Katie, how much that finding religion kind of gave her a purpose and gave her meaning and kind of made her feel less alone in the world, because it's very clear from the very beginning, she's very isolated.

[00:19:36] She's very alone. She doesn't really know how to connect with people, or maybe doesn't want to connect with people based off of that incident. So as the movie goes on, she starts getting more and more intense, either visions and signs from God or hallucinations. There's like whirlwinds into the beer and more kind of like full body [00:20:00] experiences.

[00:20:01] And it all comes to a head when, after a party where Amanda exclaims that God isn't real and mud almost beats the shit out of her, she gets fired. But then after this like day long, you know, alcohol filled sex filled bender, she gets a sign from God and actually like a message from God, which was spoken in either the actors.

[00:20:28] I don't know if it was implied. That Maud as well, or if it was just because the characters, I mean the actor playing the character as well, but God speaks to her in her native tongue of Welsh and says, this is what you have to do. Like, this is what you have to become. So she goes to the house and exercises and slays, Amanda, and then proceeds to the next morning, burn herself alive on the beach, 

[00:20:53] the end. Good times.

[00:20:58] Nicole: And that was also [00:21:00] beautiful. Alanah. 

[00:21:03] Sean: She got some nice wings too. 

[00:21:06] Nicole: There's some nice golden wings. 

[00:21:07] Alanah: She did kind of have like the Olivia Newton, John style during one shot of the self-immolation. She did have a little bit of like a Xanadu style yellow glow around her. Before that 

[00:21:17] Nicole: cut. I was 

[00:21:18] thinking the same thing.

[00:21:19] And I was thinking about how I'm going to do a show image for this episode where on one side it's a, still from that of mod, like as she's self-immolating. And then on the other side, that classic shot that's on a lot of the Xanadu posters of Olivia Newton John like the 

[00:21:34] glow. And then I was like there's, these were really 

[00:21:37] similar shots.

[00:21:38] So, yeah. 

[00:21:39] Agree. I agree. Um, lots, lots in common between these two films. Um, should I share our, our decided connection? 

[00:21:50] Sean: I guess he can do that. These 

[00:21:54] Nicole: these two films, besides all the obvious similarities between them, uh, both [00:22:00] feature a protagonist who appears to lose touch with reality as they sink further and further into a kind of religious fundamentalism, uh, in mods case Christianity, uh, in Sonny Malone's case.

[00:22:15] I mean, uh, according to him, according to Xanadu the Greek gods really exist and he 

[00:22:24] talks to them and interacts with muses and all sorts of other things that, that can't happen according to natural 

[00:22:32] law. Um, and, and, uh, w we were interested in 

[00:22:36] kind of looking at these two films in many respects are very, very different, but have this 

[00:22:41] similar path 

[00:22:42] for the protagonist 

[00:22:44] in them.

[00:22:46] So how, how do we all feel about these two films? When did we watch them for the first time? Um, what's our relationship with them? What are our feelings Alanah? Do you want to share your journey [00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] Alanah: Xanadu and Saint Maud? Okay. I am going to preface this with. Just because I don't like something. It doesn't mean it doesn't have artistic merit.

[00:23:13] Like if I think something doesn't ever artistic merit, it'll be very obvious because I'm a terrible liar and I can only lie so much. Um, but I saw St. Mod for the first time, like seven or eight months ago. And I didn't really, I guess I would say like the movie didn't land with me all that much. I think there were just certain choices about the perspective that we were supposed to see that movie through that I didn't absolutely love the acting is great.

[00:23:45] Morfydd clark is amazing. Jennifer L is fantastic. Who funny enough is also in Vox Luc. Um, but yeah, there was something about the film where it was like, because it's so locked into one perspective. I feel like [00:24:00] it's not up for interpretation as much as some other films, maybe like Midsommar I feel like it would be a good example of, there is a little bit of that wiggle room for making your own decisions about whether things happened one way or whether things happened in another way.

[00:24:15] So I thought it was a very well done movie that just was not. Um, and I loved Xanadu I should say I was like on an international flight and had rented the movie for the show. And oddly enough, I actually saw the musical version of Xanadu before seeing the movie, which is very different because it's very like irreverent and it changes some details of the plot.

[00:24:40] Like the muses are a lot more involved in the musicals. So having seen the musical and then watching the movie was a very interesting experience, but I like when movies know exactly what they are, and they're not trying to pull the wool over your eye with like this big message or this big, important thing, it's like, you're gonna watch gene Kelly dance.

[00:24:59] You're gonna [00:25:00] hear Olivia Newton, John sing going to be some dance numbers, some neon, and you're going to have a good time. And I that's exactly what I had. I had a good time watching Xanadu. 

[00:25:10] Nicole: Nice. Sean, did you have a good time watching Xanadu? 

[00:25:14] Sean: I always have a great time watching Xanadu uh, I first saw Xanadu uh, maybe 10 ish years ago at, um, at the same place.

[00:25:27] I've seen a few movies that we're covering, uh, this, uh, this year at my friend David's place. Um, We were watching, uh, he said, let's watch Xanadu and so we put it up on his wall and I got real drunk and real, real, enjoyed it a lot. Um, like that time of just, it was just so strange and fun and I saw it at least one time, right after that.

[00:25:54] And then in the last year I saw it in, uh, we got our Friday [00:26:00] night, uh, text group, uh, that does movies and we watched it. And the last was it last year we watched. And I 

[00:26:05] Nicole: think it kind of in the last year could have been the year before. Yeah. I can check. I can check my letter boxed. 

[00:26:12] Sean: Uh, and then I watched it again right before this.

[00:26:15] Honestly, I never really like the first time I watched it. I didn't really absorb much of what it was about. I just sort of like enjoyed it for what it w whatever was going on, you know, the combo of, of gene Kelly. And then you get Olivia Newton, John, and it's also electric light orchestra. So, and the effects are cheesy and whatever.

[00:26:37] Uh, it also, you know, it incorporates a Don Bluth animation, which I'm a big fan of Don Bluth animation. Um, and, uh, and the works that they did, which don't get nearly enough credit for what they were doing. Cause they get buried by the, the, what is it? The Disney Renaissance of the nineties, um, And, uh, yeah, so [00:27:00] I just enjoy that one.

[00:27:01] I don't, yeah, I, I kind of also land on the it's. It's not really doing anything. It's just fun. Uh, I have criticisms of it as well. Like I feel like there, there's a reason that the movie doesn't work as well for a lot of people. And I think it's because honestly the director and the cinematographer just didn't seem to know how to, how to make a musical.

[00:27:27] Uh, there's a, there's a way in which you use, you know, in a good musical, the camera is a part of the choreography and the camera's very rarely part of the choreography in this movie. Uh, and sometimes the framing is weird and it just it's like guys, guys, guys, you're almost there. You're almost there. Um, but, uh, but yeah.

[00:27:51] Um, I, yeah, I just really enjoyed the thing. That's a lot of fun. Um, and then, uh, Saint Maud was one of those movies that I kept seeing the [00:28:00] trailers for before the pandemic. Cause it was supposed to come out like in like spring of 2020, and then it got delayed and I was annoyed. Uh, cause it was one of those movies in 2020.

[00:28:12] I was super looking forward to, um, cause it just looked really interesting to me. And then, uh, I guess I saw it right. Um, Right. As soon as it became available to rent, I watched it, which I think was 20, 21, I think, middle of 20, 21, it became available. Uh, and I, I really enjoy it. I think it's, um, it's, it's a interesting film, um, that, uh it's yeah, it's, it's got a nice level of creepiness going with it, the good performances.

[00:28:52] And also, honestly, it's not, it's, it's fairly efficient. It's not too long. It doesn't, it doesn't try to [00:29:00] do too much. They're just like, here's the thing. And now it's done. Cause I think it's only like 85 minutes or something like that. It's under nine. Yeah. So I'm like, yeah, more, more of this, just like let's get in there and let's get it done.

[00:29:11] And let's, let's not like, um, but also like good in that way. Like not just short for no reason. Like some Blumhouse stuff is just short and then it's missing something. This, I didn't feel like was missing anything, but, uh, yeah. Really enjoyed it. But how did you feel, 

[00:29:31] Nicole? 

[00:29:32] Nicole: Um, this was my second time watching both of these films.

[00:29:36] I saw Xanadu for 

[00:29:38] the first time at the affirmation Friday night, watch a movie in text thing. Sean mentioned 

[00:29:44] it was a year or two ago. I don't really know which it was. Um, and I. I was watching it and texting at the same time. So I think it was even more confusing than it might otherwise have been because, you [00:30:00] know, Xanadu it's a paradox, there's a lot happening and there's, there's not very much happening at the exact same time.

[00:30:07] Um, but it can be disorienting because 

[00:30:09] you know, that, that's just how it is when 

[00:30:12] there's that much creativity on, on screen. 

[00:30:15] Um, just vibrating and bursting, um, like a neon or, uh, around a muse rollerskating so fast that she disappears, 

[00:30:23] if you will. Um, and, and I enjoyed it and I enjoyed it again, rewatching it last night.

[00:30:29] I do think it is a bad movie in that I 

[00:30:34] think it, uh, 

[00:30:36] doesn't work in a lot of the ways it would like 

[00:30:40] to, uh, some of the stuff Sean mentioned, definitely, 

[00:30:43] uh, there are some weaknesses in the script. There are some conceptual, uh, holes, perhaps you could say. Um, my understanding is the original script for this film was 45 pages long.[00:31:00] 

[00:31:00] That's part of how you get that Don Bluth 

[00:31:02] animated sequence and things like that. Love 

[00:31:05] the Don Bluth animated sequence, by the way. You know, I, I think it's kind of a beautiful mess, I guess, is my feeling towards Xanadu it's not even that I want it to be better. Like it is what it is. I appreciate it for what it is.

[00:31:18] I enjoy it a lot for what it is. Um, and it's, I wouldn't quite say it's so bad. It's good. Exactly. There's a little bit of that, but there's also a lot of stuff in it. That's just good. Like gene Kelly dancing, for example, or watching some Don Bluth animation. Like that's not like that. That's just good. It's in this structure, that's very flawed.

[00:31:42] Um, but it's, it's a weird and unique movie and I, I like it a lot St. Mod similar to Sean. I watched when it first became available streaming in, uh, I think it was spring 20, 20. I feel like I watched it on Hulu. Yeah. Um, [00:32:00] and like Sean had been seeing the trailers for a long time and it was 

[00:32:03] like, oh, I will watch this film because realistically, 

[00:32:06] like, usually I watch a 24 horror 

[00:32:08] films.

[00:32:10] The Alamo drafhouse is advertising them to me, incessantly, 

[00:32:13] like, um, I, at the time I had the like 

[00:32:15] unlimited Alamo pass and could go see movies for free. So if something like that was coming out, I was going to see 

[00:32:21] it and I was looking forward to it a lot. 

[00:32:24] Um, and then the pandemic came and that didn't 

[00:32:26] happen.

[00:32:27] And I was happy to watch it when it finally was available streaming. And I liked it a lot initially, like a lot, a lot, a lot. And on rewatch, I still liked it a lot, a lot, uh, kind of, uh, Alanah's point earlier. Um, I, I do think it was really nice to watch it a second time. Cause the first time you're so much just kind of taking it in and putting together what's happening and there are, uh, formal questions kind of introduced in St.

[00:32:55] Mod. Where is something really happening or [00:33:00] is it just happening from Maud's perspective is kind of more of an open question to a point upon first viewing, uh, you're putting together, what is this trauma that mod is reacting to what happened that made her lose her old nursing job. There's a lot, that's never explicitly.

[00:33:16] Explained like it's revealed, but it's, there's no 

[00:33:19] exposition dump where somebody is like, and 

[00:33:21] you gave CPR to this old lady and now she's dead. And that's why there was blood on your hands. And, you 

[00:33:27] know, literally in, in your mind, uh, you know, figuratively as well. And, 

[00:33:32] you know, it's, it's, it's, 

[00:33:34] it's written 

[00:33:35] well, it's a well-written film, I think.

[00:33:37] And, um, I really liked, I really liked, I, I liked your point Alanah about the difference between this and Midsommar in terms of St. Maud leaving less room for interpretation as like a weakness. I, I don't exactly agree or in, in that, that wasn't my experience, but that makes a lot of sense [00:34:00] to me. Um, I think for me, part of what I liked was being so locked into this, 

[00:34:05] because this is kind of my jam.

[00:34:06] This is just one of those things I 

[00:34:08] like is like, you've got a completely unreliable narrator and you're getting the whole story through their perspective. And especially in something like St Maude, part of what I liked about it is I really empathized with. The protagonist, however much. I didn't like her would not want to be friends with her, did not relate to her.

[00:34:29] The film really put me in her perspective and helped me to, you know, relate more to somebody that I would normally find very, very, very difficult to relate to. Um, I felt for her and I was moved by her struggle much as I was horrified by what she did. Um, I also really like movies with well-rounded in many [00:35:00] respects, unsympathetic, female characters.

[00:35:02] Agreed. Yeah. And I liked that both mod and Amanda, the woman she's working for felt very much like very real, very flawed, uh, women with an interesting dynamic between them and relationship that I hadn't really seen in film before. I hadn't quite seen that Maud Amanda relationship. And frankly, 

[00:35:27] I would have watched like a limited series about like mod Maud caring for 

[00:35:32] Amanda and the ways they clashed, the ways they come together.

[00:35:36] Um, I thought Amanda was also a really well-drawn character in how she's like, she does mean things sometimes, but it's also super understandable to me. I'm like, you're, you're dying of cancer. And as she says, You know, it, you don't know how boring it 

[00:35:54] can be to die. So having a little fun with my 

[00:35:57] like weirdo eccentric 

[00:35:59] [00:36:00] um, nurse, who 

[00:36:01] she also feels affection for, you know, it's, it, it felt like it's not that she's like sadistically tormenting mod it's that she's stuck having to be cared for by this kind of religious fundamentalist.

[00:36:11] Who's trying to save 

[00:36:12] her soul. And she's kind of like, well, fuck, I might as well have some fun with this, which 

[00:36:18] I kind of get, and that's a different dynamic than what I've seen. 

[00:36:21] And I also thought it was just, um, I thought the score was great. I thought the cinematography was, was really good. They're all out of 

[00:36:28] these really well composed wide shots that I really, really like, um, 

[00:36:35] performances, like, like you both said, performances are great.

[00:36:38] And I like that it's, it's really tight. It 

[00:36:40] gets in and gets out. Um, it's very precise. I think it's a really well done film. And also after seeing it the first time, it's a little bit less disturbing in some ways to rewatch. Cause you know where it's for me at least, cause I know where it's going. So I 

[00:36:58] could actually see myself watching this [00:37:00] film a lot of times, even though it's kind of an upsetting film because, um, I like the crafts.

[00:37:06] The craftsmanship 

[00:37:07] of it, so very much. Uh, so yeah, that's, that's what, that's what we thought about these films. Um, other people saw these films too. I 

[00:37:15] believe. I don't think it's just the three of us. 

[00:37:18] Sean: Nicole, did you know that Janet Maslin thinks Xanadu a mess? 

[00:37:23] Nicole: I'm shocked. Cause you like to hear Janet Maslin said for Janet Maslin of the New York times, 

[00:37:30] Sean: Janet Maslin of the New York times.

[00:37:31] Would you like to know what Janet Maslin of the New York Times ay I would love to, but you would, uh, cause you copied this. Um, uh, Janet Maslin said that Ms. Newton, John plays the magical woman with whom both a young artist, Michael Beck, and a less young former musician, gene Kelly have been smitten. It seems she is a muse who 40 years ago, brightened Mr.

[00:37:55] Kelly's life and is now doing the same for Mr. Beck. The film [00:38:00] treats this fanciful notion gently without overworking it, but the muse theme does have one depressing aspect. The filmmaker's evidently not confident that the audience will know who muses are or what they do has Ms. Newton. John, tell Mr. Beck to look up the word in the dictionary.

[00:38:19] Nicole: Can I say something about that? 

[00:38:22] Okay. Okay. I, I have disagreed on this 

[00:38:26] very podcast with Janet Malin's assessments of films. We discussed many times. I don't disagree with her. That Xanadu is a mess. I absolutely think Xanadu 

[00:38:36] was a mess. However, that moment with the dictionary, um, that to me is one of those moments.

[00:38:45] And I don't know how, how you two feel about this, but there were many points where Kira really reminded me of Freddy Krueger. And this was 

[00:38:53] one of them. 

[00:38:56] One read. I think you can make of that. There were many [00:39:00] points where Xanadu started feeling like it was a horror movie to me. And like Kira was the Freddy Krueger kind of trickster character who maybe Sonny Malone was going to end up dead.

[00:39:10] Uh, but you know, and arguably he did we look that that is another potential read of, uh, the film that he either dies or is in a near death, death, uh, state or perhaps a coma after he crashes into the wall and nothing. Um, after that actually happens, it all happens in his brain, Allah Jacob's 

[00:39:30] ladder. Uh, that 

[00:39:31] theory was put forth, I believe initially for me on, uh, when, how 

[00:39:36] did this get made covered Xanadu do?

[00:39:39] And I kind of see it that way honestly, to some degree. Uh, but that's that's, I just, I saw the dictionary part is less being about. 

[00:39:51] Teaching people what muses are, because they really don't 

[00:39:54] do a good job of that in this film of explaining anything. Maybe that was the [00:40:00] initial impetus. But to me, I just thought it was like some Freddy Kruger, like, look, I can change the words in the dictionary because it's like, he reads the definition.

[00:40:07] And then it says like, now do you believe me, Sonny, this is Kira who magically inserted these 

[00:40:12] words into the dictionary because I'm a magic muse. 

[00:40:15] Sean: and the T and then she gets the TV to talk to him and 

[00:40:20] Alanah: like Twilight zone. That moment actually like there's that episode of the Twilight zone, where the guy, all of the appliances in his house are telling him to kill himself.

[00:40:29] And then because he goes so mad from trying to get away from these appliances that are talking to him, his car eventually like drives him into a tree or something. So it looks like a suicide. 

[00:40:44] Nicole: Okay. Yeah, that actually reminds me a lot of Xanadu

[00:40:50] Alanah: you're not wrong. You're not wrong. And that doesn't remind me. I mean, that does remind me a little bit of St. Mud a little bit, the whole, because of this divine intervention, I'm [00:41:00] driven to suicide basically. Yeah. For a higher 

[00:41:04] Nicole: purpose. Arguably I think 

[00:41:06] both of these films are about protagonists, 

[00:41:09] ultimately killing themselves 

[00:41:12] as part of their divine mission, whether that's to, uh, save a soul.

[00:41:20] Or at least try to save a soul or open a club. I mean, that's what the muse is like. Kira literally says I was sent here to make sure Xanadu opens in this really weird convoluted way. I can't just go back to my old boyfriend, Jean Kelly, and be like, oh, you need a club here, go to this club. Instead, I've got to like ensnare this new young guy in my weird Freddy Krueger, muse games.

[00:41:46] Show him the club and get him to tell gene Kelly about it. Y 

[00:41:51] Alanah: Why? I mean, if you think about how mod ends up looking at the end of St. Maud there's another Freddy Krueger. 

[00:41:59] Nicole: Yeah. [00:42:00] Maud Maud has. 

[00:42:01] Sean: So these, these are just, these are just nightmare on Elm street entries. Wait, 

[00:42:06] Nicole: what year did that? W what year did Nightmare on Elm street?

[00:42:08] Come out? 82, 

[00:42:09] Sean: 84, 84. Oh. So this is actually nightmare on Elm street. Is, is instead a spinoff of Xanadu or a rip off of Xanadu. There you go. I think, I think, uh, I think we're going to have to dig up Wes Craven and be like, why did you rip off Xanadu? 

[00:42:25] Nicole: And he would say, why the hell not? Let me rest in peace.

[00:42:28] Haven't I done enough for you. Uh, 

[00:42:30] Sean: apparently not, apparently not. I think 

[00:42:35] Nicole: that Janet Maslin reviews like, um, fairly emblematic, I think critics, critics generally, um, 

[00:42:44] Sean: they didn't like Xanadu. 

[00:42:46] Nicole: No. And I mean, however much we may all like Xanadu I think, well, you two can push back. I'm not going to say that critics should have been like, 

[00:42:56] this is a great film.

[00:42:58] I think they're right. 

[00:42:59] [00:43:00] That it's in many respects, a bad film, 

[00:43:02] but maybe other people here to disagree. Um, Ebert said Ebert gave it two stars. Okay. And said, Xanadu is a mushy and limp musical fantasy. So in substantial, it keeps evaporating before our eyes. It's one of those rare movies in which every scene seems to be 

[00:43:18] the final scene.

[00:43:20] It's all ends and no beginnings 

[00:43:21] right up to the actual end, which is achieved. I don't really disagree. I have more positive 

[00:43:26] feelings, but I don't really disagree with anything. He said, I 

[00:43:30] Sean: don't necessarily disagree with that, but I would rather that then what we get way too often now, which is constant beginnings.

[00:43:39] And then there's like, oh, and then there's a wrap-up. Well, last weekend we watched the new Firestarter movie, which is mostly first act like it's like half the movie is like first act stuff, like setting the table. And then to the point where I think my entire like little letterbox review of that was this, this feels like [00:44:00] a it's it's like a TV pilot.

[00:44:02] It's like, okay, here's the start. And I'm like, okay. So where's the rest of the story? Um, like I'd rather movies that we, where it was just like, here's a bunch of endings, then here's a bunch of, here's a non-stop beginning. Um, so, but, uh, yes, I think, I think that like, it's fair to say that Xanadu is not, is, is not great.

[00:44:25] Uh, perhaps even bad. However, it is also amazing. 

[00:44:31] Alanah: I also think when I was doing some research on the making of Xanadu and the release of , I found a very interesting tidbit that I think two or three weeks before Xanadu was supposed to come out the disco demolition night at the Kamisky park in Chicago.

[00:44:49] And like everyone just decided that disco was the worst thing to happen to humanity. And that radio DJ told everybody to come to Kamisky park, bring their [00:45:00] disco records, and we'd like, literally explode them. We had burned them up. There's another parallel. But I do think there was also this kind of public shaming of disco stuff like disco music, disco, fashion, disco vibes, which are all over Xanadu

[00:45:19] I do think that the movie kind of had a wrong place, wrong time moment in that it was supposed to be released back when disco was still cool and everybody's still liked it, but then suddenly, because there's something inherently wrong with disco and the BeeGees documentary actually brings up a good point.

[00:45:39] That disco was very much made up of not just the artists, but the fans. It was a lot of folks of color and folks in the LGBTQ community. So there was a little bit of like xenophobia excuse me, xenophobia surrounding disco. And that's actually one thing I saw in the background dancers in Xanadu it.

[00:45:58] Wasn't just a bunch of like white [00:46:00] people. I feel like I saw a lot of like different kinds of people being background dancers. I could be wrong. I didn't like research every single background dancers, but I saw folks of color. I saw some folks that it seems like they were maybe non-binary or transgender.

[00:46:18] So I do feel like there was kind of. Sudden rejection of disco that Xanadu got caught in the crossfires of, and maybe a bit of an unfair way and the reviewers, because they didn't want to be that one reviewer that said, Hey, I like Xanadu it was fun. Everyone just kind of felt like they had to jump on 

[00:46:35] the bandwagon.

[00:46:36] Nicole: That's what I think that's a really good point that the, um, disco backlash, which was very much about, uh, racism and, and, and homophobia and other kinds of queer phobia, uh, being a part of the reception of Xanadu 

[00:46:51] and it's funny because Xanadu you're 

[00:46:53] right? That it is disco vibes 

[00:46:55] all over Xanadu.

[00:46:56] It's like very much a disco movie, but they never say [00:47:00] that they never, this they're like, no, it's the kinds of music that they referenced in Xanadu. And that the clubs and ado is supposedly bringing together our rock and roll, which there's very little of Xanadu and big band music, which there's also very little of in Xanadu

[00:47:17] um, meaning Xanadu the film in Xanadu the club. There's basically none of either of those, the music that they're playing is at the end is not rock and roll or big band music. There isn't much rock and roll going on at all. There are some people in. Those suits, that kind of look, they reminded me of the Janet Jackson video.

[00:47:39] All right. If anyone remembers that, which hearkens back to the big band era and has the Zoot suit Shariece and like all these other yeah. And there are those dancers in those like oversize kind of Zoot 

[00:47:51] suit things, but that's, that's about it 

[00:47:53] for the big band that, which is disappointing after that number.

[00:47:57] Uh, I thought it was one of the most [00:48:00] successful as a musical 

[00:48:01] numbers and the piece where, um, earlier in the film, there's a part where Sonny Malone, the frustrated, angsty 

[00:48:08] artists, who we need to talk about more. And, uh, gene Kelly, uh, who used to have a club and play with Glenn Miller 

[00:48:16] and stuff apparently are both fantasizing about what they want their cool club to be.

[00:48:21] And Sonny Malone is picturing rock and roll and gene Kelly's picturing classy, big band. And then you literally see, and they're cutting back and forth between these two different sets where they're playing two different songs. But then the two songs begin to merge and the two sets like literally roll towards each other until they overlap.

[00:48:43] And the big band club and the rock and roll club are now in the same place. And the two different songs have 

[00:48:48] merged into one song. And 

[00:48:52] I was like, oh, this it, this went on way too long, but this is kind of 

[00:48:55] cool. Um, but it was, it was long, but I [00:49:00] mean, 

[00:49:00] Sean: it was a lengthy sequence. 

[00:49:01] Nicole: Yeah. They had to make up that runtime, you know?

[00:49:04] Um, 

[00:49:05] and I'm not really complaining, uh, but I am just pointing out that, that they're two separate visions that then became this immeshed vision and, um, fantasy has nothing to do with what the music actually is in 

[00:49:23] Club Xanadu is just, just going roller skating. Yeah. 

[00:49:27] Alanah: Well, I wonder if maybe that was like a studio note scene, like that would be kind of really close cutting it, but I do wonder if with all the disco sucks hysteria for being honest, I do wonder if the studio was like, oh, suddenly we have to kind of bring it away from disco as much as humanly possible, which would also kind of explain the ELO soundtrack, which like isn't super disco and more kind of eighties on top of a very seventies disco 

[00:49:56] Nicole: vibe.

[00:49:58] Maybe. Yeah, [00:50:00] maybe. Yeah. 

[00:50:02] Sean: Yeah, no, go ahead. 

[00:50:04] Nicole: No, I just said it's it's, it's interesting how the disco backlash. Um, it just go backlash in general is interesting. And how that plays into Xanadu um, in particular as well as the critic critical response. Cause there definitely 

[00:50:17] was for a long time, um, certainly in music.

[00:50:21] And 

[00:50:22] I would imagine this bled over into film criticism in a lot of ways as well, like this, uh, what, what used to be called, or maybe still is 

[00:50:30] called kind of rockist uh, bigotry against disco that whether consciously or not was being informed 

[00:50:38] by it and certainly furthering this like racism and, uh, queer phobia.

[00:50:43] Um, and I also wanted to bring it back. 

[00:50:45] I'm rambling a bit, but to your point, Alanah of like, yeah, it's interesting when you watch Xanadu cause I'm 

[00:50:51] like, this is hella queer, like the backup dancers. There's like all 

[00:50:54] these, like there are S&M vibes at points. There are points where I'm like, oh, this is a [00:51:00] little edgy for what I think of is, you know, Xanadu being, um, but that's also that's that's disco, 

[00:51:06] right?

[00:51:06] Like that's a lot of this stuff 

[00:51:07] that was, uh, becoming a little bit more mainstreamed or there was being more crossover between, uh, different subcultures via 

[00:51:16] the disco craze. And a lot of that was progressive in a lot of ways, um, 

[00:51:21] which then got written out of the history through 

[00:51:23] this like rockist disco sucks.

[00:51:25] Like disco's the worst real music is rock and roll, which also tends to be whiter. 

[00:51:30] And certainly in the eighties, at least pretending 

[00:51:33] to be straighter even. You know, it's all in how you look at it, perhaps,

[00:51:41] um, St. Mod, unlike Xanadu, uh, got overall pretty good 

[00:51:47] reviews. I believe didn't it? 

[00:51:49] Sean: Yes. Yeah. We got the, we got our New York times person in this, this time. It's Jeanette , uh, said folding sexual [00:52:00] arousal and religious ecstasy into a single gasping sensation St. Mod the feature debut of director Rose Glass burrows into the mind of a lonely young woman and finds psycho horror gold.

[00:52:14] Oh, I, that sounds very positive to me. So 

[00:52:18] Nicole: yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that review 

[00:52:20] Alanah: Psycho Horror gold of sounds like a weird, like Halloween disco record. And I mean that in a really positive way, like I would go and buy that for my Halloween celebration. 

[00:52:28] Nicole: I would like to hear that disco record that actually I would love to see the like sequel to Xanadu that's maybe a Xanadu Saint Maud

[00:52:35] mod crossover and . Psycho horror. Gold could be, um, you know, their hit record, that same mix when she 

[00:52:46] and Olivia Newton, John Kira 

[00:52:48] pair up to, um, help guide 

[00:52:50] Lost souls. Um, 

[00:52:53] yeah, just to round up the. Critical 

[00:52:56] response. Um, 

[00:52:59] [00:53:00] Sheila O'Malley Ebert Ebert had, uh, passed on at the time St. Maud came out, but ebert.com lives on and other reviewers post reviews there such as Sheila O'Malley who gave St.

[00:53:14] Maud 3.5 stars out of four and said, is Maud touched by the divine, or is she going mad? Is there a difference that's 

[00:53:21] kind of key to, or talking about with the connections between the 

[00:53:25] films here. Um, and then to what, uh, Alana raised earlier St. Maud stays very close to mods. Point of view. She is in every scene.

[00:53:33] We see events through her eyes. The glimpses we get of other people's sometimes alarmed responses to her are important moments of outside perspective, but mod is our only entry into the story. This makes for some very tough but rewarding viewing. Although the film has much in common with other religious based horror films and is often quite terrifying in its own, right.

[00:53:53] Saint mod is mostly interested in the experiential realities of its central characters. And Clark is so deeply [00:54:00] in touch with Maud shattered psyche. It's impossible to look 

[00:54:03] away from her. Um, yeah, I kind of speaks to some of what we were 

[00:54:09] talking about before in general, rotten tomatoes has St. Maud 93% 

[00:54:15] fresh with critics.

[00:54:16] A lot of the films we talk about. On this show 

[00:54:18] that we like, uh, critics didn't so much, 

[00:54:20] this is, this is an exception. Unlike 

[00:54:23] Xanadu perhaps St. Maud is a movie that came out at the exact right time for critics to embrace this sort of, excuse me, while I gag quote unquote elevated horror, 

[00:54:38] Alanah: Horror has always been good.

[00:54:39] Y'all are just 

[00:54:39] catching up.

[00:54:44] Nicole: I'm saying how the critics are perceiving it as not a phrase, as you know, that's in my vernacular to 

[00:54:50] use, um, on 

[00:54:52] ironically Xanadu, however, was 29% fresh with critics, but 58% fresh with [00:55:00] audiences, uh, St. Mod was 64% fresh with audiences. So interestingly Xanadu and Saint Maud have very close scores. 

[00:55:07] Well, in terms of audience reception, which kind of makes a lot of sense.

[00:55:11] Sean: And, and, Xanadu like in fairness, like anybody going to rotten tomatoes to review Xanadu most of them are going to like it. If they're going to take the time to go onto rotten tomatoes and do it from a movie from 1980, like, which is good, you know, it's the audience for the film, people who want it.

[00:55:34] Nicole: But yeah. So, and in terms of money box, office awards, other reception St. Mod grossed 1.4 million, I couldn't find how much it costs. It was like a BFI um, film, you know, it was made in another land where they have funding for films and things, national funding. Yeah. That's, that's different from how we fund things here.

[00:55:57] I don't 

[00:55:57] know how much it costs, you know, and with [00:56:00] a movie like that, I don't know how much the box office gross tells you. Um, especially it came out, you know, in a pandemic when, before people were back to theater so much. 

[00:56:11] Sean: Yeah. It got such a limited theatrical run. Like that's probably like that probably puts it in the top, like 50 for the year though.

[00:56:20] Something like that, at least 

[00:56:21] that. So Xanadu 

[00:56:23] Nicole: Xanadu on the other hand, gross 23 million, which surprised me because it's such a notorious bomb, but it only costs 20 million 

[00:56:30] to make. And I'm like, it's 

[00:56:33] Sean: a little bit more. And that, and that was before the era of like, you had to make at least twice as much on the first weekend before everybody called it a bomb I think it just was a critical bomb.

[00:56:45] And then, and then it didn't like run away with everybody seeing it and making, you know, making like a hundred million dollars or something like that, that like it's going to be called the bomb. [00:57:00] 

[00:57:00] Alanah: Pardon for the interruption? I do also think that from what I read this movie much more than St. Mod was like heavily, heavily advertised.

[00:57:08] There was lots of crossover promotion. There were, I read something about how in Macy's you could go get a muse make-over and they sold clothes inspired by Xanadu with like Xanadu t-shirts and whatnot. So probably it also bombed in that they're not telling us how much they spent on P&A publicity and advertising.

[00:57:29] So I wouldn't be surprised at that budget was more like 30 million if we're being honest. Yeah. That's 

[00:57:34] Nicole: a good point. That's that's a good point. Um, Xanadu did Reagan some awards though, like the Razzie for worst director, 

[00:57:44] um, for Robert Greenwald, it was also nominated for worst picture, picture actor, actress, screenplay, and worst original song.

[00:57:53] That's not fair. Those songs. Weren't like the worst of the year. That's that's why it didn't [00:58:00] win. Yeah, it didn't win. I don't know what one worst original song. 

[00:58:03] Um, I think, I think, uh, can't stop the music, beat it for worst picture. Speaking of 

[00:58:10] disco sucks. 

[00:58:11] I mean, I've never seen can't stop the 

[00:58:12] music, so I can't speak to it, but speaking to the disco 

[00:58:16] backlash, and I believe Brooke shields.

[00:58:21] One for, uh, the return to the blue lagoon, whatever it's called, 

[00:58:25] um, worst actress, which seems pretty fucking mean to give it to like teenage Brooke shields, 

[00:58:31] Sean: Wait are the Razzies being mean it's oh, no, 

[00:58:34] Alanah: well also I believe the Razzies were invented for Xanadu cause this guy was just so upset about its existence that it created or he created the Razzies just so he could give Xanadu all of these awards.

[00:58:46] I'm like, come on, 

[00:58:47] Nicole: dude. The Razzies 

[00:58:49] The Razzies can kind of suck it in my opinion. Um, 

[00:58:53] actually it also one least special if it, or it was nominated for least special effects, which I 

[00:58:59] thought [00:59:00] those effects were extremely special. They were a lot of fun special. 

[00:59:04] And for the stinkers bad movie awards, it was also nominated for best major motion picture from family, the family entertainment

[00:59:13] oh, no best family entertainment, 

[00:59:16] Sean: this major motion picture in family entertainment 

[00:59:20] for the young artists, artists, awards you know, the young artist awards those enduring 

[00:59:25] Nicole: awards. And it was also nominated for best family music album. 

[00:59:30] Okay. 

[00:59:33] However, also, Olivia Newton, John was nominated for best international 

[00:59:37] actress at the Jupiter awards, which 

[00:59:40] are still around.

[00:59:41] I believe those are SciFi 

[00:59:42] awards. Um, and Xanadu was nominated for a ton of a ton of like BAFTAs. And, um, I don't think we need to go through all of them. Uh, more fifth 

[00:59:53] Clark won a few awards for her lead performance. 

[00:59:58] Um, [01:00:00] Rose Glass, uh, have won some awards, the film as a whole won some awards 

[01:00:05] like, you know, it was, it was a well-received 

[01:00:09] indie film that got nominated for a bunch of stuff.

[01:00:12] Yes, 

[01:00:12] Alanah. It looks like you want, to say something 

[01:00:14] Alanah: said Xanadu instead of St. Mod, which was like the greatest thing ever to hear that Xanadu got nominated for a bunch of BAFTAs

[01:00:26] Nicole: from my mouth to Zeus's ear in a perfect world, in a perfect world, make it happen, man. 

[01:00:34] Alanah: God will it into existence. 

[01:00:36] Nicole: Let us will it into existence. Um, 

[01:00:39] but before we do that, Sean, do we have bills. Xanadu, Saint Maud, what 

[01:00:45] do they reflect about one another? 

[01:00:48] Sean: Well, there they're both, they both heavily lean into divine intervention.

[01:00:53] Um, and I think, you know, Xanadu is playing off of the, the [01:01:00] traditions in Greek mythology w where divine intervention, like the gods were just around all the time, doing stuff you didn't. And if you weren't careful, if you did the wrong stuff, you probably, you might piss off one of them who was just in disguise.

[01:01:16] Um, but, uh, so it's playing off of a tradition where they were just around and would get involved with people's lives in the, in the fantastic and the mundane. And like, it's sort of just kind of playing off like, well, a muse would inspire somebody to do things. So it's going to inspire this dude to help another dude have a, have a disco.

[01:01:39] Um, and then St. Mud is coming off of that Christian mythology tradition where divine intervention, um, is rare and really reserved for like major events, like an angel showing up and saying, Hey, you're [01:02:00] having God's kid. Um, or, uh, Hey, I'm going to flood everything. So you should build a boat. If you don't build a boat, you're going to die.

[01:02:11] Like everybody else that's generally like with divine intervention and, and a lot of, uh, Christianity, it's mostly like something, something either really important or really terrible is going to happen. So God or one of God's, um, uh, assistance, uh, shows up to, uh, let people know what's up. So very different traditions that they're coming from, which I think is reflected in the film Xanadu.

[01:02:37] It's generally positive. And in St. Mod it's, it's, it's a little bit scarier. Um, although as you established it, then do does kind of border on horror movie a little bit every once in awhile. Uh, um, so 

[01:02:56] when she shows up at 

[01:02:57] Nicole: his house, oh yeah. She's just like [01:03:00] there and she's like working behind him and he doesn't see her and we do like, and also then he's just like, oh, you're in my house.

[01:03:09] Like, no, that's creepy, 

[01:03:11] but that was 1980. That was fine. 

[01:03:13] It's not okay. Even in 1980 for a strange lady to show up in your house, when you didn't tell her where you lived, you certainly didn't give her a key and 

[01:03:25] she's just 

[01:03:26] Sean: But Nicole, she has. 

[01:03:30] Alanah: And she's blonde. Yeah. 

[01:03:31] Yeah. So she has a cool Australian accent, so, 

[01:03:35] Nicole: uh, you're right.

[01:03:36] That's and then that's different rules for Australians on roller skates. That's true. 

[01:03:43] Sean: Oh my God. Um, so yeah, go ahead. 

[01:03:49] Nicole: I was just going 

[01:03:49] to say they've 

[01:03:51] kind of different attitudes, the films 

[01:03:53] towards divine intervention, at least if you're staying within the perspective of the 

[01:03:58] protagonist. Yes. [01:04:00] There's a little bit of a here we could split.

[01:04:02] Um, but within the perspective 

[01:04:04] of the protagonist, well, no, cause within mods perspective, the divine intervention is great, but from what we see in the film, it's, it is 

[01:04:13] made very clear to the audience that it is harming her, that her what she is perceiving as being divine 

[01:04:18] intervention, at least ultimately leads to her death as well as the death of another person.

[01:04:24] Uh, sooner than it would've come, she could have at least died of cancer rather than getting stabbed to death by her ex nurse, um, 

[01:04:33] like Xanadu the plot, maybe not the protagonist, 

[01:04:37] the plot of Xanadu sees divine intervention as mostly positive. It's what allows the club's Xanadu to open, which I mean. What could be better than that?

[01:04:48] Uh, whereas in St. Mod, it leads to, you know, Saint Maud uh, to mod getting further and further isolated and kind of spiraling in, on herself and then ultimately killing [01:05:00] her former employer as well as herself. Um, 

[01:05:05] so yeah, I mean, but also you could see it, cause the only way to me that Xanadu really make sense is if it's either a Jacob's ladder situation where he is not actually conscious, starting from the point he hits that wall and the rest of the third act of the film, where club Xanadu actually opens and Olivia Newton, she, he reconnects with Olivia Newton, John, and then she's there and then she disappears and then she's back as the other, you know, waitress, totally unexplained and all that, that all that is just a hallucination 

[01:05:41] he's having in his own head.

[01:05:43] And, um, previously he was losing it a little bit and, um, uh, you know, Kira was potentially 

[01:05:52] just a woman stalking him and fucking with him 

[01:05:55] basically or another. And, you know, uh, then 

[01:05:59] this leads him to [01:06:00] try to reconnect with her once she's finally done with him and then he's in a coma 

[01:06:03] or whatever, and we see act three of the film.

[01:06:05] Uh, so from that reading his perception of divine intervention 

[01:06:11] is not 

[01:06:11] necessarily positive. Or another reading I have is that Olivia Newton-John and gene Kelly are an actual couple and their kink is trying to get someone involved into like a three-way either just having a three-way or maybe a thruple type relationship via massive manipulation that that's their kink.

[01:06:37] That's the other way that Xanadu makes any sense to me. And, and, uh, Sonny Malone is, is interpreting this as divine intervention because he, he doesn't want to, um, as somebody says in St. Maude, as, as, uh, Amanda says in St. Maude people don't see what they don't want to. [01:07:00] She says that when Maud does says that claims to not notice the hair plugs in, 

[01:07:05] Amanda's like former lover who's over drinking with her.

[01:07:09] And Saint Maud is like, or not Saint Maud, Maud is disapproving. And Amanda is trying to kind of gossip with her and is like, oh, did you see his hair plugs? And she's like, 

[01:07:19] no, I didn't notice them because I'm too wrapped up with 

[01:07:22] God to notice something like that. And Amanda is like, yeah, 

[01:07:24] people don't see what they don't want to see.

[01:07:26] And Sonny didn't want to see that his special clarinet friend, gene Kelly, and his special wacky manic pixie dream demon. Are at, you know, not actually amuse and 

[01:07:42] you know, this guy who had a 

[01:07:43] relationship with a muse who then disappeared, that it's not actually like weird fantasy stuff. That can't really happen.

[01:07:49] That it's 

[01:07:49] just a weird couple trying to seduce him through their weird 

[01:07:54] game. I 

[01:07:56] Alanah: do also think there's the similarity of [01:08:00] the power imbalance between the divine entity and the mortal entity, because I was listening on the subway the other day to magic, which is like the big song that hit number one on the charts from Xanadu and the lyrics are, come take my hand.

[01:08:16] You should know me. I've always been in your mind. You know, I will be kind, I'll be guiding you building your dream has to start now. There's no other road to take. You won't make a mistake. I'll be guiding you, which reminded me so much of the like conversation with God that Maude has in her apartment.

[01:08:39] That it does seem like there is this idea of even though like art is kind of the religion in Xanadu more than like religion is the religion or Christianity is the religion. There is this power imbalance of like, you are the vehicle for this bigger thing to happen. And your role is your role, whether you [01:09:00] like it or not.

[01:09:01] And I just found the lyrics when I was listening to the song again, like very striking striking in terms of how much it reminded me of St. Maud 

[01:09:10] Nicole: it's absolutely parallels 

[01:09:12] St. Maud and St. Maud's um, search for a path or wanting to hear God articulate her path and mission to 

[01:09:20] her and, and resonates a lot with is part of how Xanadu is messy is like the way the Greek gods element and the kind of like art follow your artistic muse element come together.

[01:09:34] Uh, uh, don't I guess you could say, um, if I can finish the thought one of the things, but it's interesting because part of, one of the things that's insufferable to me about Xanadu, although it becomes, uh, kind of masochistically pleasurable for me is just how much of a wet blanket Sonny Malone is. Like, I think he 

[01:09:55] sucks.

[01:09:57] He's he's a whiny little bitch, basically. Um, [01:10:00] he, apparently that role was offered to John Travolta. John Travolta was like, that's okay. Ended up being played by what's his name? Beck. Who's just like a charisma void. Like he brings nothing. Like, it's just, he brings nothing to it in my, in my opinion. And he opens the movie just being like, I'm trying to draw and I'm going to throw it out the window, which somehow brings the muses, even though he didn't.

[01:10:22] Paint that mural who 

[01:10:23] Alanah: did 

[01:10:24] an earlier 

[01:10:24] draft actually.

[01:10:26] Nicole: Oh, that was established in the earlier 

[01:10:28] Alanah: I remember in the musical he's I mean, obviously it's like the doctor standing still, but he has them painting the mural and being like, man, it's not worth it. And then I'm alive. It's like the opening number where all the muses come to life.

[01:10:40] Um, yeah, I was reading 

[01:10:43] Nicole: and that was that would've made more sense than what happened. Um, 

[01:10:49] but so at the beginning, he's Sonny Malone is kind of set up as like the true artist, right. He doesn't want to do that commercial shit. And as Sean pointed out for reasons that were [01:11:00] very confusing to me, he apparently, despite the fact that he has a job that pays very well, he can take very long lunches during, and doesn't have many demands of him.

[01:11:09] He can't just paint outside of work 

[01:11:11] hours, or at least do someting 

[01:11:15] artist and he should apparently get paid to just like do 

[01:11:20] his art, which obviously I think is what we would all love, but not part, not, not an option, but also 

[01:11:28] Sean: any of us. Yeah. And you also have to actually like work at that, like not just sit in your apartment and like do your art and then wait for somebody to pay you.

[01:11:37] 'cause 

[01:11:37] Nicole: that's the other thing. Cause he also is like, well, I went freelance and I was trying to like make a go at doing my art, but then I didn't know what to paint and I'm like, you know, I can relate to these issues. What I can't relate to is. Complaining to anybody else about it in this way. Um, but it kind of seems like it's about the conflict between art and commerce, like in, I don't know, Josie and [01:12:00] the Pussycats or speed racer or some of 

[01:12:01] the other films we've talked about on this 

[01:12:03] podcast that are about like, uh, the conflict between like capitalism and art basically, and trying to be an artist when there's the need to pay bills and profit and, and pressure to have, you know, be doing it in a way that other people are going to be profiting off of and things like that.

[01:12:20] Xanadu is not interested in any of that. Nope. That's a big, Nope. In fact, weirdly then when Kira shows up, it's not to help Sonny make his art, he stops making his art it's to help him open up nothing too. Like what does like, and he's whiny when gene Kelly's like, I'm going to give you 50% equity in this club that you did nothing about, except say, Hey, here's the space.

[01:12:49] That's all he brought was he found the space that actually Kira found. And, but he's like 50% owner. He's not, we don't see scenes of him like painting the [01:13:00] club. It's not that like he's inspired in the, the walls of the club are like all 

[01:13:05] these like muse murals 

[01:13:06] or something like that, like that could have made sense.

[01:13:08] Or like, even, even if he, um, decorated the. Something they're always like, you've got a good, I like multiple people telling me has a good eye, but absolutely nothing he does for the rest of the movie has anything to do with his eye. So that's one of the flaws of Xanadu I would say is in terms of the kind of divine, it gets a little muddied.

[01:13:32] The path gets muddied. In Saint Maud the divine path is very clear. Xanadu there's some mud and 

[01:13:38] grass and you know, well slime and stuff kind of obscuring. 

[01:13:44] Sean: Yeah. I think that the part of the difference is that , she's not intervening for sunny. She's intervening for. Sonny is a vehicle for the divine intervention.

[01:13:58] Sonny's Sonny is [01:14:00] there to on behalf of the muse in directly be like, Hey, you should start a club again. And Danny go like, I should start a club again. And then here's a place you can do it. Here is a place I can do it. Like Danny's really, it's it. I think one of the things that's a confusion with it and it's on the fault of the filmmakers is that the film is like, you think the film is supposed to be about like Sonny being inspired by Kira and then they fall in love around that.

[01:14:32] But instead it's really like Kira is using him as a vessel, uh, to, uh, to provide this inspiration, to lead Danny, uh, to this. And he falls in love with her through that. 

[01:14:49] Nicole: Another, 

[01:14:50] Sean: it would almost be better if he wasn't an artist. 

[01:14:53] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Th the art thing feels very, like, just got forgotten about 

[01:14:59] Alanah: if you was like a [01:15:00] 20 something that just didn't know what to do with his life.

[01:15:02] And he's like, I just don't want to be a part of corporate America 

[01:15:05] Nicole: that would make sense. That would work a lot better. Um, on the, how did this get made about this June Diane Raphael put forth a theory that I also thought was interesting and kind of relates 

[01:15:15] to what you just said, Sean, which is that, um, Kira is not actually the.

[01:15:21] Muse for either of them. They are both muses for her and her project is creating club Xanadu. Oh. And I just thought that was interesting. 

[01:15:32] Sean: Maybe they're just her tools for it. She's like, I'm amused. I can't get alone. Like I have no, I have no history 

[01:15:41] also. Yeah. There you go. 

[01:15:44] Nicole: She's Freddy and they're the

[01:15:45] the bodies right? Like he needs, she needs, she needs a body to do stuff in the corporal world. And she apparently like 

[01:15:51] disappears a lot when she does 

[01:15:53] it. She just appears for an album cover and 

[01:15:55] then she's gone. Exactly. So 

[01:15:58] when she can't, she can't get alone, she [01:16:00] can't, 

[01:16:00] she's missing, 

[01:16:01] Sean: she's mostly a user.

[01:16:02] Cause she also used that photographer to, to, you know, like get like, uh, get Sonny's attention, like one of the many things. So like in the end now I'm starting to see her as a lot more like the God and Saint Maud. Um, where it's just about like, you're going to have to do this thing that I tell you. Uh, arguably she's worse.

[01:16:26] She's a lot more manipulative. Keeps keeps making people fall in love with her. So maybe her whole plan from the 1940s was to make Xanadu happen. I mean, she's maybe just working on a really long timeline here. Like she meets, she meets Danny in the forties and is like, you know what? I want, I want a club, but it's not the time yet for our clubs.

[01:16:45] So I'm going to make this guy fall in love with me. So he remembers me I'll come back later, comes back later. Now is the time 1980 now is the time for club Xanadu there you go. 

[01:16:56] Nicole: Yeah. And it's a lot more insidious, I think, from a certain [01:17:00] perspective than St. Maude, because the God in St. Maude, 

[01:17:03] um, setting aside, you know, the interpretation I think is correct, which is that Maud is 

[01:17:10] imagining, but like, let's, let's whatever, within, within the realm of her imagination, what's happening, the God is a lot more like a pinhead or the cenobites or something in that she went, she pursued that God, she's like, Hey, I'm here.

[01:17:27] I'm putting pins in the, inside my shoes and tormenting myself. Don't waste my pain. Give me my fucked up path. God, I am begging you for that. Sonny was just 

[01:17:40] like, it's not fair. I want to get paid to do nothing and then 

[01:17:44] cure. And I mean, and then Kira just shows up and is like, I'm going to Freddie manipulate you into starting Xanadu

[01:17:51] he didn't go look it, he wasn't searching. Maud was. And Sonny was like the opposite. I mean, 

[01:17:59] Sonny is one [01:18:00] of the most kind of void protagonists I've seen in a 

[01:18:04] minute in a film. I was just like, why, although you notice he was listed third in the credits, even though he's functionally the protagonist of the film.

[01:18:14] Well, that's a question who do we think 

[01:18:15] the protagonist of Xanadu is? 

[01:18:16] Sean: I think it's Kira. 

[01:18:18] Nicole: I think I like the reading that it's Kira. 

[01:18:21] Alanah: Yeah. 

[01:18:23] Sean: She's also the one who is she's sorry, go ahead. No, no, you go for it. Go for it. 

[01:18:26] Alanah: Especially because of like that kind of fourth wall breaking, wink that she has at the end of the shot.

[01:18:32] I do think it's very much like us realizing or the film revealing its cars of like Kira has been in the driver's seat the whole time. 

[01:18:41] Nicole: Yeah. 

[01:18:42] Sean: And yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, she's the one who, uh, you know, I'd have to go back and break it down more. But my, my standard for figuring out the protagonist is I just kind of look at, uh, I, I lean on like, who's making decisions that move the story forward.

[01:18:59] Um, or [01:19:00] who's the main person doing that. And I think she's the one who's doing that. Like, um, much like the joker in the dark knight. She is not often, she's probably not typically viewed as a protagonist, but she is. 

[01:19:14] So, 

[01:19:15] Nicole: yeah, I think that's, uh, I was, I mean, I think you could also argue that, uh, Gene Kelly is Danny is the protagonist, but I prefer.

[01:19:23] I prefer the Kira as protagonist. I 

[01:19:25] think that makes more sense. And I think the fact that you could argue any of these also 

[01:19:29] speaks to some of the messiness of, uh, Xanadu. I don't think the 

[01:19:34] filmmakers were necessarily clear on who the protagonist is. It may have switched each time they did more cocaine. So just saying, um, I, I did want to bring in something I thought was interesting that I hadn't known that I read in this people magazine 35 year retrospective on Xanadu. [01:20:00] Which was, uh, that in 1983, Louisiana resident, Michael Owen, uh, began to think that Olivia Newton, John actually was a Greek goddess who used her eyes to communicate with him.

[01:20:18] Uh, the story as summarized by entertainment weekly, we can link that EW article in the show notes ended with Perry going on a killing spree, speaking to EW Newton. John said the incident marked a frightening moment in her high profile career, I guess, because I was playing this ethereal character. He got reality and show business confused.

[01:20:37] I left the country for a while. That was a very scary time. I bet it was a scary 

[01:20:40] time. 

[01:20:40] Olivia Newton, John, I'm sorry that happened to you. But it also, I was like, whoa. So Michael Owen Perry was kind of having 

[01:20:51] a St mod. Yeah, yeah. With Olivia Newton, John, like looking to her and 

[01:20:59] seeing, [01:21:00] um, so like a lot of what before I, I knew that I had no idea 

[01:21:04] that that terrible event had occurred.

[01:21:09] Um, and I'm kind of, that's a bit of a big downer to bring into our whimsical discussion of ways in which Kira is like 

[01:21:17] Freddy Krueger. And, um, 

[01:21:20] Xanadu is, is like Saint Maud in terms of, uh, characters, you know, divine intervention and communicating with gods and things like that. And here is a tragic example of someone in real life.

[01:21:32] Sean: But, uh, but it is, it is like, I think very related to like how you can look at both these films and what we were talking about in like, um, perception, like the, you know, in both these films it's arguing. I think it's a little less arguable other than just kind of having fun with trying to figure out Xanadu, uh, whether or not the perspective of Xanadu is that all that she's a real [01:22:00] like muse and all these things happen.

[01:22:02] Uh, I think St mod tries to play it a little bit more ambiguous. Um, Uh, but like, you know, people's perception of these things like it, like this P or perceptions of reality, like, is this a thing that's actually happening or is this something that's all in their heads? I mean, it's a real concern. Um, in every day in every day life, uh, is, are people perceiving action like, I don't want to say actual reality, but like, um, the shared reality amongst everyone else, or are they having an entirely different experience of things?

[01:22:45] So this Michael Owen Perry was a, I think it's, um, I think it's an open question. Whether or not what happens in St. Maud is all, you know, all [01:23:00] just sort of in her head or there is a God that she's interacting with. I think there's arguments on both sides of that. I tend, I tend towards the, um, that, uh, It is in her head mostly because of the final shot.

[01:23:15] Like it goes from like that shot of her on the beach and she's glowing and stuff. And then it just has that quick cut to the screaming and cover and, and, and the screaming and burning, uh, which I think is just like that, that for the, for the, for the, for the filmmakers, just so like the final word for the film is going to be this shot of, you know, she's not glowing and stuff she's actually burning alive.

[01:23:41] Um, and I realized in the second watch of the. Saint Maud this time, how much they tease with a F uh, the lighter and fire throughout the film handles. Yeah. Or when she's alone, the first time she goes out on her own, she's [01:24:00] playing with the lighter and it won't light. Um, she's just sort of flicking it. And then in, in Xanadu, well, it's, I think the perspective of film is probably like this all just happen.

[01:24:11] Um, I do think that we could, there's a couple of questions. Uh, if there, you know, it does Sonny just die, um, at, uh, you know, when he runs into that wall, uh, or, and the rest is just like, as you said, a Jacob's ladder situation. Um, but even if we don't look at that part of it, um, we could also have a question about whether or not, um, so for Xanadu like the difference there.

[01:24:47] Well, we we could like ask about like, well is, um, is Sonny dead or alive, but like, uh, in, uh, that's one question you could also, [01:25:00] uh, ask at the very end there, there's the girl who looks like Kira and whether or not that is Kira did Kira become a mortal. And so that she could be with Sonny at which 0.1 has to ask.

[01:25:14] You know, is she in her right mind? Um, but, uh, like, is that like, does, does she choose to stay with him? Are they the same person or is it just a girl who looks like him? I mean, I think there's perceptual stuff that could be addressed with, with both of these movies, but also then this reaction to the movie.

[01:25:33] So we all think is, is mod talking to God, um, is that fun to rhyme? What do you think? 

[01:25:43] Alanah: I think, and this is actually the thing that one of the things I should say that I didn't love about this film is that because of that final word shot of her burning alive, I feel like it was a very hard, no, whereas something like this is [01:26:00] a very different movie, but it's a wonderful life.

[01:26:02] There is a little bit more of that. Like maybe this was just a dream, maybe it was an angel and there's like a little bit more interpretation to it. Um, I definitely think it's all in her head. And it's interesting. Cause I was thinking about when I've heard that story about Michael Owen Perry, it made me think about like violence and film and also, um, the idea that like something pure, what, something that is, I should say, supposed to be pure and good, like a fun disco movie with Olivia Newton-John or God's love in St.

[01:26:36] Mods case they cause horrifically violent acts to take place, which I think is an odd parallel between these 

[01:26:45] movies. 

[01:26:48] Nicole: Yeah. I think that's a really 

[01:26:50] interesting point. Um, and I, I agree with Alana that 

[01:26:55] I think it's all in mods head. I think Sean's 

[01:26:58] point about the final [01:27:00] shot, where we see her dousing herself with acetone on the beach.

[01:27:03] Um, and we see her like glowing gold and growing these angel wings and we see all the people on the beach stop and drop to their knees and raise their hands up in some sort of 

[01:27:15] religious exhaltation of, of some sort. Um, 

[01:27:20] and exhal it was that a word 

[01:27:25] wow. 

[01:27:26] Sean: It's even the correct use 

[01:27:27] of it. 

[01:27:28] Nicole: Wow, great.

[01:27:30] Amazing. Good for 

[01:27:31] me. Point one for Nicole. Um, so 

[01:27:34] yeah, so it's all that. And then the last shot of the film, like Sean said is they cut to, um, she lights herself on fire, but she's. Beaming and like radiant and 

[01:27:46] everybody's like, whoa, you know, having this God moment. And then it cuts to what I think we all see as 

[01:27:52] being, you know, objective reality to whatever 

[01:27:55] degree, such a thing exists.

[01:27:56] And it's her 

[01:27:57] inflamed screaming in agony with [01:28:00] her face 

[01:28:01] burning off. And it's a really quick 

[01:28:02] shot. But, um, I, I agree with Alanah that I think that is the filmmakers tipping their hand and being like, 

[01:28:08] no, God, wasn't talking to her. This isn't a movie about someone God was 

[01:28:12] actually talking 

[01:28:13] to. Um, the, 

[01:28:14] uh, unlike Alana, I liked that in this context.

[01:28:18] I also like it's a wonderful life and stories where it's ambiguous. We talked about it's a wonderful life actually on this podcast, we talked about it together with the exorcist. 

[01:28:27] Alanah: Yeah. I remember that one coming around 

[01:28:30] Christmas time 

[01:28:31] Nicole: with Liam 

[01:28:32] Billingham, um, for our Christmas episode, but, uh, 

[01:28:36] uh, 

[01:28:37] Liam Billingham of the Oeuvre Buster's podcast, uh, which many of us have been 

[01:28:42] on at various points, but, um, in any event, I, I liked that.

[01:28:46] Cause I appreciated that they were like, ah, They weren't, how can I put this? I, I appreciated that. They weren't like trying to have it both ways. [01:29:00] I'm trying to make it right heo. They weren't trying to make her a hero. They weren't trying to cop out on what their point of view was towards this material.

[01:29:09] Um, so for me in this case, I liked that and yeah, I don't, I don't think, um, 

[01:29:14] I don't think God 

[01:29:15] was talking to her. I think she was very traumatized and not coping with that and increasingly isolated. And one of the things I liked so much on this watch was like all of the moments where it appears that something supernatural maybe happening of which there are a number there's the, she sees a Whirlpool in her beer, uh, before she kills Amanda, she sees Amanda's face contort and her voice to store in a somewhat demonic way.

[01:29:47] When we see Amanda try to push Maud away, mod kind of flies across the room as if. Amanda has some sort of demonic strength that, 

[01:29:58] uh, this [01:30:00] frail 

[01:30:00] dying woman probably would not have. And I'm sh and, and there's also the moment where after St. Maud Saint Maud keep calling her Saint Maud after mod slash Katie has gone on her drunken bender and is kind of at her lowest point around the end of act two, uh, before God speaks to her, she like throws up and then imagines herself levitating.

[01:30:21] And there's also a thing that's established in the film where she's having chronic stomach problems. At the very beginning, she talks about how like, oh, maybe I'm getting an ulcer. You know, I, I took milk of magnesium. I've also got my periods and I've got cramps too. And just, you know, 

[01:30:36] my abdomens and how, and as someone who's been there a lot and has, has, 

[01:30:42] uh, stress-related stomach issues 

[01:30:44] and stuff like that, including how to flare up 

[01:30:46] recently, 

[01:30:47] um, Maud's like I got 

[01:30:49] drunk and then puked a lot and 

[01:30:52] decided it was a religious experience.

[01:30:54] And, um, 

[01:30:55] imagined myself levitating. I found that [01:31:00] extremely plausible and all of the moments where we see what she's experiencing, and it's what looks like some, something a bit supernatural is happening. It's always limited enough that it's just extremely plausible to me that somebody in her mental, emotional, and physical conditions.

[01:31:19] And the physical being a big part of it too, because when she talks about what it feels like, uh, when God talks to her, cause God only talks to her toward the end of the movie. Amanda asks her earlier on, like, so you talk to God all the time. Cause God talked back and she describes God's response as being physical feelings.

[01:31:34] She has it's, it's not that she actually hears God until. She's like way off the deep end at the very end. Um, so one of the things I really liked about it is how much it puts us in her perspective and how plausible I found it was. And it's like, I mean, is it a story of mental illness? Sure. Obviously like she needs some help, but I don't think it's necessarily a movie about somebody who's say schizophrenic [01:32:00] or something like that to explain the hallucinations.

[01:32:03] She only starts having those hallucinations when she crosses a certain threshold that, um, I think anyone wouldn't necessarily have to have, uh, schizophrenia or another condition like that, that might, um, caused them to have hallucinations, to have the kind of mild hallucinations that she has when she's past this point of just trauma, distress, despair, suicidality, paired with this kind of real physical pain, um, of different sorts.

[01:32:36] And I just, yeah, I liked that a lot. Um, 

[01:32:42] I had some point to make 

[01:32:44] about what you said, but I'm spacing on it. um Alana 

[01:32:48] about the, uh, something good that gets 

[01:32:52] warped and twisted, um, or something supposedly good. I realized that does kind of segue. And I think some 

[01:32:58] of the stuff we wanted to talk about [01:33:00] about, uh, 

[01:33:01] religion or gods or the divine or whatever you want to call it, spiritual content in both of these films.

[01:33:09] Um, and, uh, 

[01:33:13] uh, but I first, I, I, if Sean or Alanah you want to talk more about that? I'm not trying to hustle us along. 

[01:33:20] Sean: Um, no, I mean, I, I do, I do agree that like, I think the film's perspective is, is that, is that she's hallucinating. Um, I think that, uh, I think it starts, it starts somewhat like, um, ambiguous and, um, I think it's not really until it's not really.

[01:33:54] Clear or like us, there's not really a strong moment. I think of like [01:34:00] now it's not really happening until the very end. I think that's when the, what they save it for. Um, I think it's, I think you can have a question about it for most of the film and I'm like, oh, is it happening? Oh, is it not? Um, and then, um, yeah, and I think I've mentioned this before on this, on this show, is that like, there's the question of whether or not something is happening as far as, um, as far as a character is concerned, uh, you know, for her, for, for mod, obviously all these things actually happened.

[01:34:37] Um, like, you know, outside of mod, they didn't happen, but for her, it's all as real as anything else. Um, and I do tend to land on the side for, for things in a film of, well, if you see it in the film, it happened, even if it didn't happen, like it happened for the character, you [01:35:00] know, you know, if the character is having a mental breakdown and these things happen, but the observable reality outside of them, other people don't experience it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[01:35:11] It just means it only happened for that one person. Um, And, uh, cause sometimes the, you know, you'll get into those arguments or discussions with people. What really happened in the movie and I'm like, well, it all really happened. It's just who did it happen to and who did it not happen to? Uh, which I, which also just kind of plays off of psychology in general is that, uh, you know, objective reality is important, but it's important when you're talking to somebody who is having maybe a break from reality or interprets things drastically different from you do, which I've had, uh, a few friends in my life where they had that situation.

[01:35:54] It's like, you can't just like, it's just as real for them as literally anything [01:36:00] else for anybody else. So it's, it's, it's it's it happened even if it didn't happen, it happened. Um, so, so yeah, and I think, um, uh, yeah, I think we can, w w w were, where did you want to go with the, uh, with the religious stuff?

[01:36:20] Nicole? You said you were going to, 

[01:36:21] Nicole: uh, 

[01:36:22] there was an article I 

[01:36:23] pulled just, uh, earlier 

[01:36:25] today, actually, cause I wanted to see, um, what people out there were saying about, uh, mods relationship 

[01:36:34] to God and how, uh, Uh, kind of 

[01:36:37] religious fanaticism is portrayed in, in, in St. Mod. I was shockingly unable to find any materials 

[01:36:46] that discussed both these movies together.

[01:36:48] What about the, you know, uh, divine 

[01:36:51] intervention, faith element of them. Uh, but I found I'm not familiar with this writer, but I found a piece on medium by somebody named [01:37:00] Jared 

[01:37:00] Covin 

[01:37:02] Corvin, um, in an article called bad faith in St. Maud, how horror cinema came to fear the preacher, which also talks about Midsommar a little bit as well as some other, other films.

[01:37:15] And, um, he saw a trend of, I think he called it religio phobia, I think is the term he used in film, uh, that he saw both Midsommar and Saint Maud as kind of being a part of albeit in different ways. And he spoke about some other films as well. And he, he kind of pointed to how it used to be that in horror movie is the church 

[01:37:44] was something 

[01:37:46] that fought evil, you know, like in the Exorcist or any number of vampire movies where like, you know, crosses or et cetera.

[01:37:54] But, but that there's a recent trend in which the church is now, uh, [01:38:00] uh, the, uh, 

[01:38:02] source of. Evil as opposed 

[01:38:05] to the counter to it. Um, and he said the darkening of religion, meaning, in film has less to do with the church and more with attitudes towards people of faith. And he goes into a little bit more depth and 

[01:38:23] specifics, but, um, I 

[01:38:29] don't know that I agree with that.

[01:38:32] I'm just going to say, I 

[01:38:33] know how Sean feels about it. I'd love to hear 

[01:38:35] how you feel about it, Alana. Um, and we can read a couple more of these quotes. Well, yeah, actually, let's let's we, we can, we can talk about, I'll save my thoughts for a moment, but I would either of you like to talk about that, we can also draw on 

[01:38:50] some of this other, some of the other things he 

[01:38:52] said.

[01:38:53] Alanah: Yeah. I think, um, I do wonder how much it is actually about [01:39:00] religion, as much as it's about any sort of really intense, organized belief that cannot be proven or disproven. So for example, Q Anon is not actually a religion, but I think it kind of terrifies people, just how many people are convinced that JFK Jr is still alive, which is for some reason important to people outside of his family and loved ones, obviously.

[01:39:24] Um, or even like the insurrection. Like I think it's more that people are very, very scared that people can take something such as. Patriotism or a love of their country or democracy and turn it into something violent and especially with the internet and the way that information, whether verified or unverified can spread very, very quickly and gather people very, very quickly.

[01:39:50] I think that is what maybe he's really referring to more than religion, if that makes sense. Cause I even think of something, [01:40:00] um, what was the movie I was thinking of? Damn it. I lost it, but I'll just use Midsommar again, as an example of like, yeah, it's a religion, but it's mostly about like the physical things that they do to people rather than their beliefs that they have.

[01:40:18] Because I think if they just went on believing in their gods without bothering anyone, G people would just kind of be like, all right, whatever. But the fact that like there needs to be an active violence in order to practice their religion or acts of violence. I think that's what freaks people out is this idea of getting envelopes into something that you don't necessarily want to get enveloped.

[01:40:39] And I mean, even at the end of St Maud like those poor people that had to watch that woman burn alive at the beach, they're probably all traumatized for a very, very long time or even, you know, poor Olivia Newton, John, with that guy that committed those heinous acts that probably 

[01:40:57] required a lot of therapy.

[01:40:59] If we're being [01:41:00] honest, 

[01:41:01] Nicole: Yeah. Um, 

[01:41:04] Sean: yeah, I, I agree with that. And also, I mean, I think, you know, I mostly just skim the article and I looked at the quotes because it was one of those ones that kind of started irritating me, um, cause like this whole thing, because well, part of, one of the quotes. Well, yeah, no, no.

[01:41:24] It's the one that you read the, the, the one with the attitudes towards people of faith. Like it's one, it, it, it smacks a little bit of the like, oh, that's religious people. And when he says religious people, he's really just talking about Christians. Um, cause that's a lot of where these examples are coming from.

[01:41:42] Uh, he says like, oh, we're so persecuted. Like people, Why don't, 

[01:41:44] people love us. We just want to talk about how great 

[01:41:48] God is. And it's like, well, okay. And his article was in what? 2019 or something I think was the date on the article. What was it? 20, 20 or 2021, where they found [01:42:00] another school in Canada with the graves of children around it from, uh, excuse me, specifically, indigenous kids, specifically a church run school.

[01:42:13] And that is not the first time that has happened. Like that's, that's the thing that goes back a ways like my, my home state of Alaska that is a very real part of the history in Alaska is, uh, I don't think that there was quite as much of the like dead kids buried around the school thing, but there was, you know, it's the religion being used in this way, weaponized against people, but also, um, like we have that, we have, you know, decades of hearing about the Catholic church, moving priests, who again, harmed children, um, and just like centuries worth of history of [01:43:00] religion being either used for used as an excuse for, uh, or.

[01:43:07] Participating in or turning an eye, uh, turning, turning, turning away from and allowing to happen, uh, you know, atrocities. And I think it's, I think it's, you know, this, this idea of like, oh, well, like this dark view of religion really doesn't have to do with the church. It's all about like, you know, P people's attitudes towards people of faith is I feel like it's a disingenuous argument.

[01:43:36] It's like we have history, we have history of, of centuries, millennia of people using religion, um, for harm. Um, it's and it's either big things like I was just talking about or it's small things. You know, I, part of my view, I admit, comes from, [01:44:00] um, you know, where I grew up. My hometown was largely, I don't pay enough attention to know if they still are, but I assume they still are, was largely, um, negatively affected by that we have a mega church.

[01:44:17] Uh, there's a very large Baptist temple, uh, that a lot of people attend in my hometown. Um, that also has a school. And, uh, you know, it's very conservative and all the worst ways, um, you know, homophobic, uh, anti-choice all of that like harmful and very, very actively engaged with politics and like molded the politics of my hometown, like, uh, and the whole state and a lot of ways, because my hometown is also the half of the state population of the state lives there, like there's little ways in which this is [01:45:00] also like negatively affecting, um, people, uh, in their day-to-day lives.

[01:45:07] And I think that like, yeah, attitudes have shifted. Like we're not, we don't have William Peter blady and, and, um, God, what's his name? Um, the director of the Exorcist free Friedkin can thank you. And William Friedkin going like, oh, we need to get more people to go to church. So let's make a thing that scares them into it with the, the Exorcist and, you know, making people be afraid of the devil.

[01:45:31] Now it's like people grappling with like on some level, you know, making films and grappling with their, their own relationship to the religion, whether that's, you know, they've had a generally negative experience like I have, or they had a negative experience that changed the way they feel about it, or they just read about these things in the news and have to ask themselves, like, is [01:46:00] this like, here's this thing that claims to be good, that claims to be helping people that want to save your souls.

[01:46:07] And yet it will also cause this harm like is mod in her, in her quest to save this woman's soul or stated quest to save this woman's soul. Like she then subsequently murders her as part of that, you know, it's that's, that's my 

[01:46:26] take. 

[01:46:28] Nicole: Yeah. 

[01:46:29] Um, I really, I feel what, what both of you were saying about that.

[01:46:33] Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to give another little quote from this, this Jered Corvin article that I think, uh, Kind of 

[01:46:44] continues the conversation. Um, he said recent demonic, possession films, like the devil inside and the nun full-disclosure, I've seen, neither of those films have relied heavily on the idea that faith figures are inherently spooky, not least the latter's titular [01:47:00] heroin rather than representing salvation.

[01:47:02] The traditional images of the church have come to signal terror while the othering of Christianity is not especially surprising as church attendance and religious education have been in decline for decades. It's sinister turn in the cinematic imagination is two things first. Um, didn't see, either of those films, my understanding though, is the nun is part of the conjuring universe.

[01:47:24] Alanah: Yeah. It started out as like an ancillary character. And then they said, Hey, James Wan this series made a lot of money. Can you make it, make some more money? I don't know if that movie's any good or not. I haven't seen it, but that's the gist of it is it's like the origin story of the spooky nun with the big black eyes and the shitty 

[01:47:42] teeth.

[01:47:43] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. But the idea that the conjuring universe is in any way, shape or form othering of Christianity just made my brain implode because the conjuring universe is 

[01:47:54] Christian propaganda. Like we did an episode about Sean and I did where we talked 

[01:47:59] [01:48:00] about, uh, 

[01:48:01] um, the 

[01:48:02] conjuring three and 

[01:48:04] a blood. 

[01:48:05] As being two films, uh, based on 

[01:48:09] like the accounts of lying liars who lie about, 

[01:48:13] Sean: which is to, just to note in case anybody goes, looking for that, it is a patreon exclusive episode.

[01:48:19] Nicole: Oh, sorry. 

[01:48:20] It is. 

[01:48:20] You have to subscribe to our patreon to hear what we have to say about the 

[01:48:22] conjuring three and a blood sport and the similarities between those films. But I'm like, I haven't seen the nun, but I find it hard to believe that the Nun is a film that's anti-Christian or othering of Christianity when the whole conjuring universe is, is, is about exactly what Corvin is laying out about how it used to be, where, where the church and God are the source of light that is fighting the 

[01:48:50] forces of darkness that are the evil.

[01:48:52] That's what all those movies are. Um, all three conjuring 

[01:48:55] movies of which I've seen all of them. And they're the biggest thing. They're one of the [01:49:00] biggest things in horror right now, the conjuring universe is way bigger than St. Maude like Midsommar was a huge hit, um, and Midsommar and whether that's, I mean, that's not about Christianity anyway, but like Midsommar was a huge hit for like a 24 or whatever.

[01:49:16] None of these things are making conjuring money. So this idea that the new thing in horror is, oh, well now the church is scary and it used to be, the church is good. The church is good, is still thriving in horror. So this guy, I think, 

[01:49:31] uh, I'm interested in his 

[01:49:33] perspective, but it's a little, like try being any other religion, like, or not a religion for that matter, like Christianity is doing.

[01:49:41] Alanah: Okay. Yeah. I also think that, like, this makes me think of my 80 something year old, Irish immigrant grandma, who always talks about how kids can't play outside anymore. For those who are listening, I'm doing air quotes. And my mom always rebuttals with like, no, it's, you know, it was always dangerous for kids to play outside.

[01:49:58] You just hear [01:50:00] about it more and people talk about it more like, honestly, I don't know if James wan went to Catholic school or not, but the Nun probably came from the possibility that James Wan or one of the writers or producers or something went to Catholic school and the nuns were mean as hell my mom told me stories about Catholic school that made my jaw drop to the floor in regards to like what the nuns thought was okay to do to kids.

[01:50:24] Um, so I think also it's maybe more of like, we're people are just deciding to not cover things up anymore, like, or maybe not even cover things up, but like own up to the bad as much as the good, if that makes 

[01:50:39] Nicole: sense. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. Um, and I think. The, the other thing that weirds me out about the argument being made in one of the other things, the about that weirds me out about the argument being made in this article is like, I mean, you can read St mod as being a [01:51:00] critique of Christianity.

[01:51:02] Certainly. I think that's supportable. Um, but that's also not really what the film is primarily about. In part it's weird to view it as like an attack on organized religion. When one of the aspects of how Maud's faith, um, is manifesting as so toxic is the fact that she's not actually participating in any organized religion with anyone else.

[01:51:32] She doesn't go to church. She doesn't have any sort of religious figure that she's getting bad counsel from. There's no, you know, that may be part of her history or whatever, but it's, we don't know her exact relationship with Christianity, but it's established that it's a recent conversion that happened after she believed she killed a patient in her traumatized state where she no longer had her [01:52:00] job.

[01:52:00] That was like her purpose. She thinks that medicine is a noble calling that obviously gave her, gave some meaning to her life and all of that, that was taken away. She thinks she killed someone. She apparently has no family she's in touch. Or close friends or a support network or anything she's losing her mind.

[01:52:15] And she turns to God and she turns to God, not via the church, but just via her own personal, special readings of religious texts and relationship to God. And it's interesting cause Amanda gives her that book of William Blake paintings and she reads at one point, this quote from William Blake, that seems to really resonate with her.

[01:52:36] She's kind of like, huh? Yeah. Noted where he says something about, uh, organized religion getting in the way of living a true spiritual life. And Maud is absolutely like a purist about this. She just wants to get down to the bare bones of serving God, primarily it appears through pain. And then, oh, if I can save this [01:53:00] soul, this will be my one thing.

[01:53:01] And then when she's not able to actually save Amanda soul at the end, when Amanda just laughs at her, she sees Amanda as being demonically possessed experiences her as being demonically possessed and then kills her in a like vanquish the demon type thing. But again, none of that was under the instruction or influence of any religious body.

[01:53:23] It came from her kind of as like we were talking before, like going feral by herself, you know, having her own weird warped, um, Take on things, not that her take isn't supported by, I'm not saying that there aren't organized religious bodies that, you know, support her take on things. I'm not saying that her view of Christianity is necessarily any kind of perversion of Christianity.

[01:53:48] It's just the particular version that she fell into was very much in part out of her isolation. And it's about, you know, uh, trauma and losing [01:54:00] yourself to something when you need something and you don't have any of the things you need around you. So you have to go into a fantasy much the way 

[01:54:09] Sonny arguably does in, um, 

[01:54:12] Xandu.

[01:54:13] But so I just think it's ma St. Mod, which is such a specific portrait of a specific character and how religion plays into her story to view it as primarily being an anti-Christian film. I is, um, that feels very off to me. I don't think that's really the main point of, of, of the film. I think something like breaking the waves, which we talked about on the show is much more like, oh no, this is a critique of Christianity.

[01:54:44] This is a critique of the church. That is one of the things that this film is primarily about. This involves that, but it's not, um, a clear cut point in the same way. 

[01:54:57] Sean: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. [01:55:00] Um, and I think. I, I do think it's an um, I forgot after the first time I watched it and I, uh, and then I watched it again yesterday, uh, that about the William Blake stuff, because the William Blake stuff is very relevant to Maud specifically, because if I remember right, he had like part of what inspired his art and his, his, his poetry, uh, was that he had sort of similar sort of euphoric and, or, and, or horrific, um, visions and experiences and had a very sort of, as, as you were saying, like, there's that like very personal relationship with the divine that he, uh, advocated for.

[01:55:48] Um, and I think that, um, yeah, there's a definite like strong parallel there between him and her and kind of what, why she would [01:56:00] definitely connect with, uh, his art and, and, you know, she's cutting up some of it and she's doing all that, um, in it, uh, yeah, I think collages. Exactly. And yeah. What, what Alanah what you were saying about the nuns thing?

[01:56:15] I, you know, when I saw that part of the quote, I was like referring to the nun. I'm like, The number of times I'd heard like, yeah. Horror stories about nuns from people who went to Catholic school, like uncles and stuff like that. It was literal, literal, torture, not like, oh, they, you know, they, they did a few, you know, they wrapped my fingers with a, with a, with a ruler or something like that.

[01:56:43] Like literally I think my uncle had described that at one point he was made to hold books stacked in each hand and squat, um, by a nun. Yeah, that sounds 

[01:56:57] Alanah: about right. My aunt was caught chewing [01:57:00] gum and she was made to stand in the garbage pail with the gum on her nose, the entire class. 

[01:57:05] Sean: That sounds 

[01:57:05] Alanah: like just like, I don't wanna say tar and feathering.

[01:57:08] Cause I saw John Adams and that looks awful. But to a 12 year old girl, I mean to anyone really that's so cruel and not respectful of you as 

[01:57:20] a human being. Yeah. No. 

[01:57:24] Sean: And it's funny. Yeah, go ahead. No, go for it. 

[01:57:27] Nicole: Oh, I was just going to say it's funny because this idea that horror dealing with critiquing the church, being a new phenomenon, like you guys talking just now, it's like I rewatched the devils recently.

[01:57:39] I guess that 

[01:57:39] film was suppressed in the seventies, 

[01:57:41] but if you want to watch a horror movie, that's actually about the horror of Christianity. Watch the. 

[01:57:48] That's what that movie is about. That's not exactly what St. Paul is about. That is about 

[01:57:51] the problem of organized religion and through the 

[01:57:55] organization and the, uh, the power that gets 

[01:57:59] [01:58:00] consolidated and enacted the horror that comes from that.

[01:58:03] But that's 

[01:58:03] not, that's not present in St. Mod. No, I'm not saying 

[01:58:06] it's contradictory, but it's just not, that's not what it's about. 

[01:58:10] Sean: No, 

[01:58:11] Alanah: to add onto that recommendation. I also highly recommend this movie, which finder general, which was one of Vincent Price's movies in the seventies about this guy who was tasked with finding quote unquote, which is, and torturing and killing them in any way, shape or form.

[01:58:28] And it just shows how, not even just evil and cruel, but like people talk about like the banality of evil. And there's this banality of persecution that you see in this movie where people will literally just stand back and watch somebody get tortured for something they may or may not have, have done in the name of Christianity specifically in witch finder general.

[01:58:51] Um, so you're right. I don't think that this critique is anything new. I think there might be maybe like a little resurgence of it [01:59:00] because we've all been in a pandemic and we've had time to think 

[01:59:02] about that. 

[01:59:05] Nicole: And there's a, you know, uh, 

[01:59:06] growing Christofascist movement in this country, seizing power and the right wing of our political apparatus is becoming increasingly specifically Christofascist.

[01:59:17] So I think the, uh, uh, bad side of, uh, Christianity, um, is, is on a lot of people's minds these days. 

[01:59:26] Cause we're, cause we're seeing it, we're seeing it, um, take over more and more a 

[01:59:31] you know, in, in some respects in the United States 

[01:59:34] right now. Um, it's interesting that you said the banality of evil, cause I think that's how this article 

[01:59:41] actually ends is by quoting Hannah Arendt and talking about the banality of evil.

[01:59:46] Yeah. Um, the, this article, the, the Jared coven one S uh, 

[01:59:52] and it's talking about a movie that called, um, apostasy about a family of Jehovah's witnesses. [02:00:00] I've never seen it. Um, but he liked this one better. He said this one, I guess, 

[02:00:05] because it's critiquing Jehovah's witnesses instead of something more close to home for him, maybe.

[02:00:09] I don't know, but he's saying that it's more empathetic, but 

[02:00:13] it says he does end by saying, um, 

[02:00:18] That something about the ending, the way the moment is rendered both in the mundane delivery and the sympathetic ears of those listening and thinking about how much of this is worth taking seriously makes this portrait of a man living in fear of demons, all the more disturbing to channel Hannah Arendt it is the banality that gives evil its sting.

[02:00:37] Um, yeah, I just thought that was interesting. I guess I don't have a point to make, 

[02:00:43] Sean: but it all comes together. It all. Yeah. 

[02:00:46] Nicole: I think, um, 

[02:00:47] though the, uh, Saint 

[02:00:49] also St Maud and quite arguably Xanadu 

[02:00:52] Also are depictions of the banality of evil that given it sting, 

[02:00:56] Alanah: I was just thinking of that. I was thinking of the Michael Beck character [02:01:00] and the banality of his like artistic passions.

[02:01:02] If we're being honest, you just kind of wants to like be an artist and be successful. And when there's no like active pursuit or active love of something, it is very easy for this higher power, whatever that higher power may be, whether it's a Welsh speaking God in St. Maud or Olivia Newton, John on his roller skates and Xanadu you know, it makes it easy for any sort of powerful seemingly all knowing entity to come and take your hand and just show you the way and everything will be fine.

[02:01:32] Nicole: And it's interesting. Cause as uh Maud says 

[02:01:34] early in St. Mod, I have no time for creative types as they tend 

[02:01:38] to be self-involved. Which I thought it's a 

[02:01:42] Sean: good description of 

[02:01:46] Nicole: when I watch Xanadu 

[02:01:47] right after that, I was just like, 

[02:01:49] Alanah: well, there's 

[02:01:49] a difference between like creative types and people that actually are creative professionals.

[02:01:56] Sean: And 

[02:01:57] Nicole: I don't know if there is to Maud 

[02:01:59] though. Cause I think she would [02:02:00] see that also as being very superficial 

[02:02:03] and, you know, uh, you 

[02:02:06] know, whereas to save a soul 

[02:02:08] now that's quite something. And she puts in and then as, as we discussed, um, 

[02:02:15] in terms of the 

[02:02:16] degree of like the, the, to whatever degree, the 

[02:02:18] films a critique of Christianity, that mostly to me came out actually in that binary of like, I'm either going to save your soul or I'm going to kill you.

[02:02:27] If I can't save your soul, I'm going to fucking kill you. And I'm like, 

[02:02:33] that's, you know, that, that speaks to some situations beyond Maud herself. Definitely, definitely. And that, you know, it was one of the brutal, um, but 

[02:02:43] absolutely believable, uh, uh, aspects 

[02:02:46] of the film and viewing mod as a part of the, a certain kind of toxic Christian apparatus, however much she may not be going to church herself.

[02:02:54] Like she's still behaving in what she sees as being the righteous [02:03:00] way, which is in keeping with what many figures have seen. Um, the film was originally 

[02:03:03] inspired apparently by Joan of arc 

[02:03:06] in part interesting and Rose Glass, trying to imagine. Oh, a young woman like that, how she would be received today, who felt she communicated with God?

[02:03:17] There's a million differences between Joan and Joan of arc and St. Maude. Um, I don't want to overstate that, but it is interesting. 

[02:03:28] Um, and I, it's funny cause Sean and I worked together actually on a Joan of arc project that I directed some years ago. 

[02:03:35] Um, 

[02:03:36] that was part of an anthology film called, uh, bring us your women 

[02:03:40] that were every, all the filmmakers were making these different little short films, uh, based on these songs written by a composer, 

[02:03:47] Catherine Kaposi about different, uh, uh, 

[02:03:53] different female figures throughout history, a lot of, uh, divine figures and 

[02:03:58] things like that.

[02:03:59] Songs [02:04:00] inspired by them. And I 

[02:04:01] did one about Joan of arc. And my take on her was not about her as 

[02:04:06] somebody who erroneously thought she spoke to God, but rather 

[02:04:10] as somebody who was tapped into a larger 

[02:04:12] righteous cause that she was willing to sacrifice herself for and was also trying to be a leader within, against all odds and things like that.

[02:04:21] Um, 

[02:04:22] but you know, it is also true that many people have speculated. The Joan of arc may have been schizophrenic or. Maybe she wasn't schizophrenic but was 

[02:04:32] hallucinating and not, you know, uh, was experiencing mental health issues, uh, of a sort that were not 

[02:04:38] understandable or legible in her time, uh, and were interpreted as being a connection 

[02:04:45] to God.

[02:04:45] I'm just throwing that out there as something Rose Glass said, not something I have a big point to make about St. Mod relating to. Um, but that 

[02:04:54] Sean: makes, that makes sense. Um, I think, well, because [02:05:00] I think it's, it's, it's, it also kind of plays into like, not necessarily what this guy was talking about, but just kinda in general that, that, um, you know, there are things that happen now.

[02:05:18] Um, incidents with people, you know, this, uh, this Michael Owen Perry or something like that, where, um, I think if we were 100, 200, 500, a thousand years ago, they would be interpreted very differently and there would be a different life path for that person necessarily because like, you know, we have, we have stories whether they're true or not, uh, from religious texts of, you know, people having experiences that were, um, That that were fantastical or they saw this, they saw this thing.

[02:05:59] They, [02:06:00] um, they taught, you know, burning bushes and, and wheels covered in eyes in the sky or whatever else. The, you can find weird shit in the Bible. Um, you know, now when that hap, when, if somebody comes with that says that they're seeing these things, um, we have a different interpretation of it because it is, we have more information about how the brain works and more information about how, uh, we're processing things.

[02:06:30] You know, we have psychology and we have, uh, medicine, um, and a slightly better view of how the brain works or, or when, when it's going, uh, when it's going awry, I guess. Um, so that, like a lot of things that would have traditionally been interpreted as some sort of religious fervor or religious experience are now [02:07:00] hopefully being treated, uh, as like, oh, you you're having a full-on break from reality.

[02:07:06] That's actually dangerous for you and people around you. Um, we have some medication for that, or we have other kinds of therapy for that. Uh, I don't think it always works out all that well for everybody, but like, we definitely have, we definitely have. Ways that we deal with that. And, you know, I think that manifests sometimes in the stories that we're telling and that like, let's take it, let's take Joan of arc and then let's alright let's, let's take what happened with her and put it in a modern context.

[02:07:37] And then what we get is probably somebody who's not doing well, you know, uh, mentally ill or, um, or otherwise there isn't like an appropriate path for what she wants to, you know, Joan of arc gets to lead, uh, lead troops, uh, for her God. Uh, and you know, her killing people is all [02:08:00] sanctioned, uh, mod, not so much.

[02:08:03] So, uh, the same with even, you know, in realistic sense as somebody like Michael Ownen Perry, at some point probably just would've joined some religious order that allowed him to, you know, fight for his God and do the thing that he thought he was supposed to do for his God. Um, so, uh, yeah, I mean, I think we just have this sort of evolving, maybe not necessarily changing, evolving, um, view on how people, uh, engage with reality that honestly ends up on purpose or not being critical of.

[02:08:47] W what we had in the past. Um, but yeah, it just ends up being critical because it was, um, because it's different. Like, because it's not [02:09:00] interpreting it the same way as it would have been interpreted before. Um, I think, 

[02:09:05] Nicole: but then again, it 

[02:09:05] raises the question on, on, on the part of whom though, because we're a very divided nation right now.

[02:09:13] People got a lot of different perspectives 

[02:09:16] on it. Right. Divided 

[02:09:16] Alanah: world. If we're being honest, I think we're kind of like getting to mod levels of isolation in our existence, especially since the pandemic kind of like facilitated that isolation. 

[02:09:28] Nicole: Yeah. And a lot of the people who are like, I'm very 

[02:09:32] upset about the secularization of, uh, society 

[02:09:37] and want to like there's, I mean, there's always, there's always a religious right.

[02:09:41] Push happening at least throughout my entire lifetime. And especially like starting in the nineties when the Christian right, like really, uh, started getting their shit together and being like, you know, and the promise keepers came out and like all these, uh, all these organizations that started 

[02:09:59] channel, [02:10:00] whatever, 

[02:10:00] that's not to digress too much, but this has been a constant throughout my life.

[02:10:04] But right now, Like those 

[02:10:07] people are ready for holy war. You know, they're, they're in it as far as they're concerned, it's happening now. And some of the battlegrounds of that include things like, uh, 

[02:10:17] mental health care, for example, and psychiatry, like, and I mean, I just heard a story about a kid who died in an exorcism, like about a month ago, I think in California or something like these, these things are still here with us and, you know, the ebb and flow the backlash to the Sequim, secularization, the backlash to, you know, the mainstreaming of mental health care after, you know, um, obviously in around world war II with the rise of fascism, uh, in the last century that in part involved a massive backlash to psychiatry and developments in research on [02:11:00] mental health and things like that.

[02:11:01] And psychology like literal burning of books and libraries and research and all of that wiping out research that had been done for instance, on, you know, um, oh, I don't know, transgender people, for example, and things like that, that kind of like set things back in a way that a lot of where we're at now.

[02:11:21] That's like, oh, we're so evolved in 2020, we know what's up. We could have been there a lot easy a lot earlier, had it not been for an actual fascist campaign against those things, which is also happening again right now. So we're seeing 

[02:11:35] some of those currents and trends and conflicts repeating, you know, just to wrap things up on a super happy note. So, you know, it, it may be, we may have presidential candidates soon running on the like rollerskate into a wall to be with the muses platform. I don't know, stranger things have happened this year. Yeah. 

[02:11:59] Alanah: [02:12:00] Yeah. I wish he could be like, that's fine. No, one's going to rollerskate into walls. I'm like, no, they probably will.

[02:12:06] Nicole: That would be one of the better things they could do, honestly. Like, if that's what you're going to do. Okay. Just, you know, it's like, don't, don't sign skating 

[02:12:13] Alanah: out to the, to the presidential debate booth. 

[02:12:17] Nicole: Oh God. I can see it now with the, like the blue, with the, with the glow glow and the blur. Oh. And blur to everything. It would make things better. Sean, you can do it. You know how to do that stuff.

[02:12:33] Sean: I'll make it happen. 

[02:12:35] Nicole: We, one thing we didn't talk about enough, though, I do have to say is the Don Bluth animated sequence was added both because they can't show him fucking apparently in a family movie and two, because the movie was just not feature length.

[02:12:48] So they're like, ah, you know, it's cheaper than reshoots. he's not, he hasn't made secret of Nimh yet. 

[02:12:57] Alanah: I thought there was also something along the lines of like [02:13:00] the main character was supposed to sing a couple of songs with Olivia Newton, John. But because Michael Beck couldn't sing, they had to like retool the film a little bit.

[02:13:08] And that song they played over the animation was supposed to be like his big, solo. I might be conflating that with cause in the musical Cheyenne Jackson is the guy that originated Sonny on Broadway and that's his song is 

[02:13:22] Nicole: don't turn away. He can sing, and he he's a singing person. Why they cast this tool? I mean, I get why, why John Travolta was like, no, thanks.

[02:13:31] Apparently thought also, Mel Gibson was in the cards. 

[02:13:35] Sean: There were a couple people 

[02:13:36] Nicole: because he can't sing. No, 

[02:13:38] Alanah: They could always do the Bollywood thing of like, there's the actor that does the acting things. And then like, everyone's totally fine with the fact that someone else will be doing the singing that the actor 

[02:13:48] Nicole: lip syncs to.

[02:13:50] I would be fine with that. Marion Cotillard didn't do her own opera singing 

[02:13:53] and Annette and that didn't bother 

[02:13:54] Sean: us. I mean, that's, that's, that's the whole plot of singing in the rain or a big part of the plot of singing. [02:14:00] With gene Kelly exactly. 

[02:14:04] Nicole: On the rain with something we should, 

[02:14:06] Sean: we should always do singing in the rain.

[02:14:08] Nicole: That's a great 

[02:14:08] Alanah: movie. 

[02:14:09] Okay. It is. It's beautiful. 

[02:14:10] Nicole: As were these two movies in their own ways. 

[02:14:14] Alanah: Weirdly enough, 

[02:14:18] Nicole: they really, I have to say for anyone listening at home, I literally did watch them as a double feature last night. And it worked very well. You, I had St mod first, that was a little more intense.

[02:14:28] And then you just had this palettecleanser of Xanadu andd good order. And it brought a lot of coherence to Xanadu because if you don't have something like that, that you're trying to compare it to, you might be completely lost 

[02:14:43] and just floating off in space with the 

[02:14:46] Sean: th they also both take place by the, by the ocean or by the beach stuff going on important scenes at the beach.

[02:14:55] So 

[02:14:56] Nicole: the very actually both movies, [02:15:00] um, have, yeah, no, they don't both end, but Xanadu starts at the beach and mod ends at the beach. 

[02:15:07] Sean: So if you watch the same Maud and then Xanadu together, then you're going from one beach to another beach. And it's just, it's just a flow. Just like, go from one to the next. It's great. 

[02:15:17] Nicole: They did it that way on purpose. 

[02:15:18] Sean: Totally. 

[02:15:19] Alanah: They knew they knew. 

[02:15:21] Nicole: Unofficial. Yeah. You told them so that they could make, you know, St. Maud be like a low key unofficial sequel. Most people don't know that you may have heard that 

[02:15:32] here first 

[02:15:32] Sean: Kira Kira appeared to Rose Glass and was like, yo, and on the beach 

[02:15:37] dude 

[02:15:39] Nicole: and rose glasses, like after having been like, I just wish I could do my art and get paid to not work my easy job,

[02:15:51] I guess, I guess much like it was, you know, Sonny's calling to make club Xanadu was rose glasses to make a sequel to Xanadu. The more, [02:16:00] you know, oh, 

[02:16:01] Alanah: a 4MC exclusive. 

[02:16:05] Nicole: This is what we bring you. This is what we do for you so much. The good stuff we got it. Well, we sure talked about these movies. 

[02:16:15] Sean: We did. We spoke about 

[02:16:16] Alanah: problems today. I 

[02:16:17] Nicole: think we did. Yeah, I think we did. I think the world's a better place now. 

[02:16:23] Sean: The little. Just a little bit silence that just like, 

[02:16:26] if anybody, if anybody goes looking after the, after the episode starts looking around, going like, is the world actually better? They're going to be disappointed.

[02:16:34] It's just a tiny little bit it's it's like maybe not super noticeable. Well 

[02:16:38] Nicole: then what they can do is they can just tear up whatever they were working on and throw it out the window. And maybe just, maybe it will start glowing and find its way across the highways and byways of the land, to the correct mural, to animate a muse, to come help you find your path.

[02:16:55] So that's what I recommend to you. Just whatever you're doing, whatever paper you were last, [02:17:00] working on, anything on, maybe you were doing some simple math. Maybe you were doodling. Maybe you were taking some notes on a movie for a podcast, whatever it is, tear that shit up, throw it out the window. That's the only way to be free and find your true 

[02:17:13] calling. 

[02:17:14] Sean: Throw, throw, throw anything that you're working on out the window.

[02:17:16] It doesn't have to be just be paper, like 

[02:17:19] Nicole: just points the heavier. It is the more inspiration will be returned to 

[02:17:24] you. Exactly.

[02:17:28] Sean: Uh, w where can people find you Alanah? 

[02:17:31] Alanah: Um, people can find me on my official website. alonda-rafferty.com. They can also find me on Instagram at Alanna Rafferty and my, um, podcast. Instagram is at girl presses play as well. 

[02:17:49] Nicole: And check that out. If you, if you enjoy our show, um, you may very well enjoy Alanah's show as well.

[02:17:55] And you can, you can also find a lot of very, very soon in the next four mile circus [02:18:00] film reveal in which she plays, uh, the humorously named Katie is also the name of the character. Also an unofficial St. 

[02:18:11] Maud sequel reveal, upcoming 4MileCircus Production 

[02:18:16] a little bit kind of it's a little bit.

[02:18:17] You'll see what we mean by that. As soon as it's out, 

[02:18:19] which hopefully will be around the time, maybe even this podcast is, but we'll see. Um, but, but until then, thanks Alanah. And thank you for listening. This is so much to Zeus and the muses and, and God, the gene Kelly to Don Bluth. 

[02:18:37] Definitely to Gene Kelly and Don Bluth.

[02:18:39] Those two are all we always alive in my heart. I think Don Bluth is still alive in the world. So, sorry. That sounded weird to 

[02:18:47] read that. But Gene Kelly rip lives on, in our heart weird final performance for gene Kelly to have it be Xanadu, but you know, man's still got it. He still had it smooth. He really [02:19:00] moves.

[02:19:01] I liked it. All right. 

[02:19:02] Alanah: Bye bye guys. Thanks for having me.

[02:19:14] Sean: the Celluloid mirror is a four-mile circus production hosted by Nicole Solomon and Sean Mannion. Our theme music is twisted by Kevin McCloud. You can hear more from Kevin cloud at incompetech.filmmusic.io please take a few moments to rate and review the Celluloid mirror on your podcast platform of choice.

[02:19:35] It really helps with discoverability. If you have questions or comments about what you heard on the show or suggestions for future episodes, feel free to email us at info@4milecirucs.com or seek us out on social media. We are at four mile circus on Twitter and Instagram. Want more from the celluloid mayor, Shawn and Nicole.

[02:19:59] Join our [02:20:00] patreon at patreon.com/4milecircus. You'll get early access to episodes, uncut video of our recording sessions, access to our discord server, and much more to learn more about everything we do visit us at 4milecircus.com.

[02:20:27] Film Clip: I ended up in that hall of mirrors

[02:20:30] there was another girl. She looked like me exactly like me.

[02:20:44] Can you come with me in my dreams?

[02:20:47] That'll do pig. 

[02:20:54] What happens when the story dies. And the evil [02:21:00] is set free?

[02:21:10] I have to return some video tapes.