[00:00:00] Sean: On the celluloid mirror, we usually take two films and look at what they reflect about each other, the audience and our culture at large. But today we are going to do that with more than two films, because this is a very special episode on which we're gonna share. And compare our respective top five films of 2022 so far.

[00:00:27] Movie Clips: I mean, what do you think? You think they stand a chance? Well, you're on their side. Aren't you? Who you betting on?

[00:00:39] Magic, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest one of all? 

[00:00:46] Look at these lies. 

[00:00:50] One shall stand one shall fall.

[00:00:57] Even if one of them survives... [00:01:00] 

[00:01:01] The only way to stop him is to make another movie.

[00:01:09] Nicole: Welcome to the celluloid mirror. I am one of your hosts, Nicole Solomon, and 

[00:01:14] Sean: I am another host, Sean Manion on the celluloid mirror. We take two films and look at what they reflect about each other, the audience and our culture at large. But today we are not doing that. We're going to record an episode today on which we were planning to do exactly that.

[00:01:33] But then I went and got COVID and I was not able to research and prepare for that episode as thoroughly as we wanted to, or we were not able to. Um, so instead we're gonna shake things up a bit and we're gonna compare and contrast our favorite films of 2022. So far as of now, which is June 25th, 2022, which is, uh, the recording date for [00:02:00] this episode.

[00:02:01] Uh, these are our five. 

[00:02:06] Nicole: We will start by sharing our respective fifth favorite films of the year and chat about those. And then we will move on to our respective fourth favorite films. And so on. Luckily there were some good films this year, so we, we both have there have been a few. Yes. Yeah. We've both got some stuff.

[00:02:25] I think we're really excited to discuss. So we, should we just get into discussing it, Sean? We, we 

[00:02:31] Sean: should. What was your fifth favorite film of 2022 so 

[00:02:37] Nicole: far. Okay. Don't, don't disqualify me for this, Sean, but I may have broken our non-existent rules for this, um, this very special episode because I, um, my fifth place is a tie and half of the tie.

[00:02:53] I'm not sure qualifies as a film because it's, 

[00:02:58] Sean: I'm gonna let it slide. [00:03:00] Now. I'm gonna let it slide for one reason. 

[00:03:02] Nicole: That you don't have an alternative? 

[00:03:04] Sean: No, because the tie fighter is my favorite Star Wars ship. So ties are okay with me. Anyway. Continue to tell me about the thing 

[00:03:14] Nicole: you, um, uh, that that's, that was surprising.

[00:03:19] I was gonna say you never fail to surprise me, but that's really not true. I would say you actually rarely surprise me, but that was one moment in which you did. Uh, so my fifth favorite of the year I'm gonna say is a tie between Joel Kim booster's fire island. Uh, the Jane Austin inspired romcom that takes place on the titular fire island.

[00:03:43] It. Great. Um, there's been a lot written and said about that. As as somebody who, as I have, you know, have, um, entered midlife one could say suddenly I enjoy romcoms now. And I've been actually catching up on a lot of like classic [00:04:00] romcoms that I missed, like 27 dresses or whatever stuff I never watched. Cuz when it came out, I was like, I don't wanna watch that.

[00:04:07] But now I do want to watch that I find romcoms very enjoyable and I think that this is definitely one of the best done I've seen ever. Um, it's obviously nice that it's a gay romcom. That's mostly about men of color for a change, like, but also just the script, the direction, the acting just on a filmmaking level.

[00:04:30] As far as romcoms go, it's a particularly good one and um, You know, love, love the cast, love the crew, love Joel Kim booster and Bowen Yang who play the two main characters. Um, and I also really, really, really love Conrad Ricamora who plays, uh, one of the love interests. I saw him play Seymour in little shop of horrors on Broadway before Broadway removed, um, the rules [00:05:00] that said you had to wear masks in the theater.

[00:05:02] So I'm probably not gonna go to a Broadway show for a while. Uh, you know, cuz I'm, I'm not trying to get COVID for a second time. Um, or at least I'm trying to delay when I do get COVID for a second time. So in any event, I'm very glad I got to see the excellent Conrad, Rick Amora on stage in his like just fantastic performance as Seymour when I could.

[00:05:22] And I really like what he does in fire island. Um, it's kind of hard to explain, but he plays a character. You haven't seen it right? Sean? No, I haven't seen it yet. Yeah. He plays a character. Who's like kind of, uh, Stiff in various ways and withdrawn, but also extremely hot and, but also very awkward and his, how he plays that felt very, very, very true to life in a way that I haven't really seen someone play like the awkward love interest character before I thought it was actually a really distinct and, and very good performance.

[00:05:58] And I'm hoping to see a lot [00:06:00] more from him. And then, uh, the other half of my number five position goes to the thing that's arguably not a movie, which is W. Kamau Bell's. We need to talk about Cosby four part documentary. I'm counting it as a movie because it's screened at Sundance. And, you know, you could take it as a big ass, four hour long movie if you want.

[00:06:19] So that's why I'm putting it here. Um, I thought W. Kamau Bell did an excellent job. Just delving very deeply into a very. Difficult and complicated subject. Um, and talking about both Cosby, like it's about talking about bill Cosby, about the entirety of his career, including positive historic things. He does, you know, mm-hmm, , the film does not shy away from any of that, but in fact, like delves into that deeply as important context for when we talk about the many, many, many, many women he raped or otherwise assaulted, um, some of whom speak in this documentary about their [00:07:00] experiences with him as well as other comedians.

[00:07:03] And, uh, it's um, it's a, it's a, it's a great documentary about a difficult subject and, you know, um like I grew up on Cosby, the documentary made me remember ways. Cosby was a part of my day to day life as a kid that I didn't even remember. I used to watch picture pages obsessively. Um, I don't know if you ever saw that.

[00:07:25] Like all these com. I loved picture pages. I w there was this thing you could order where you could order. I think basically like a piece saran wrap you could put over your TV. So then with a marker, you could like do picture pages with bill Cosby, something like that. Anyway, it's like, you know, this is a figure that, um, has impacted everybody in this country, honestly, whether they watched the show or not.

[00:07:51] And for a lot of us, like, yeah, he was America's dad. He was the like image of, you know, this is the benevolent [00:08:00] loving patriarch. Um, obviously, you know, I'm clearly not black, so I don't think my personal reminisces remini, eh, my personal. Tale of Cosby is, uh, you know, the most among the most important to center right now.

[00:08:19] But I think it does speak to how incredibly widespread, um, his just import was. I still have cassette tapes from when I was a kid that have like bill Cosby, standup routines recorded on them that I taped off the radio, including I think the Spanish fly one, which they talk about a lot in the documentary and hearing bits of it, even though I'd been reading people like talking about that bit for like years now.

[00:08:42] Um, and I hadn't like listened to it myself in some decades, but like actually hearing it again. I was like, oh shit. I remember being a teenager. And just listening to this mm-hmm and not even, I think I thought it was a little weird, but not. Not, um, I didn't think it was as rapey as it clearly is, but [00:09:00] anyway, I highly recommend, we need to talk about Cosby.

[00:09:02] It's on Showtime right now. Um, I think they still have a 30 day free trial. If you don't have Showtime and wanna watch it, Sean, what was your fifth favorite film of the year? 

[00:09:12] Sean: Well, I did wanna say, I think it's fair with a lot of these things that get serialized like that, to just count it as a movie, cuz in the end, a lot of 'em should have just been a movie.

[00:09:24] Like I'm sure that when I'm watched it yet, but, and I'm not sure how I feel about watching it yet because, um, because of my feelings about the Cosby thing, I'm just like, I don't, I don't, I don't know how much I can interface right now still. Um, but like so many of those, like there's all these documentary series or like honestly like every Marvel and most of the star wars series could have just been a movie.

[00:09:55] Like, I just, just finished Obi-Wan Kenobi this week that really could have just been a movie. [00:10:00] Um, so 

[00:10:02] Nicole: this'll, this needed to be the length. It was like in order to do justice to the subject and the breadth of it and not give short shrift to things that I think were really important to cover it. It needed to be this long, but I think it's like it got broken up into a four part docu-series because that's gonna be more marketable than a four hour long movie.

[00:10:23] Yeah. But this, this is not something that should have been cut down, actually. Okay. But I agree with you that most things, most, most of these most docu-series I see should have been a 

[00:10:33] Sean: Documentary. Yeah. Um, so my fifth favorite, um, was, uh, turning red, the Pixar movie, um, about 13 year old girl named Meilin, who, uh, turns into a giant red Panda whenever she gets too excited or angry or agitated, whatever it's, she's kind of like the Hulk.

[00:10:55] Um, but adorable, she's like an adorable version of the Hulk. [00:11:00] Um, we saw it, I think the weekend that it came out on Disney plus, uh, earlier this year and it was, uh, and it was, uh, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun. It's a really cute movie, but it's also, I feel like. Um, like we usually watch most of, if not, all of actually think, we think we've watched all of like the things that Pixar releases my wife's really into 'em.

[00:11:30] Uh, and honestly like the last, like four or five that we've watched, it's the only one where I'm like, oh, this is good in the same way that I really like connected with and appreciated some of the other, um, some of the other, uh, past, uh, Pixar ones, you know, like what makes Monsters Inc. Or toy story or some of those, um, things like inside out, which I didn't like as much, but still like all those is [00:12:00] that I think where they've been really successful is where they really dig into like, Uh, just shared fundamental experiences and, and tell a fantastic story around them.

[00:12:18] You know, it's. Uh, and this one is just really about how we change as we get older, particularly as teenagers. And, you know, there's a very direct like line from the storyline. The storyline in this movie to, um, you know, a girl getting her first period or something like that. Like, but even so like that's prob that's the most direct way you can kind of translate this, but I think it really does translate to like how relationships between parents and children shifts as they, as, uh, children kind of start that path towards adulthood.

[00:12:59] [00:13:00] Um, and I think they did a really good job with it without being overbearing with it. It's not like a perfect movie or anything like that, but the main character also has a delightful like friend group around her. Um, it's, it's a period film. It takes place in. 2002, I think in Canada. Um, and it, it managed to do a really good job of being like a movie that takes place in that late nineties, very beginning of the two thousands, um, that has the right feel for it.

[00:13:36] But didn't feel like it was just like, it didn't feel like that was like, it was just trying to ride nostalgia at all. In fact, like it, it added to the story, but it didn't dominate the story. It wasn't something that was distracting. Like there was like the Tomagotchi thing, which, you know, uh, I'm sure kids [00:14:00] today probably are just like, what the, what is that?

[00:14:02] But, you know, those were, uh, fun, but it wasn't, it didn't dominate the story. So, uh, I, I appreciated that. It's nice to see, um, more, uh, films being made sort of about. That era, uh, or centering kind of some of that era, uh, just because that's part of when I was young, I mean, I wasn't that young back in 2002, I was like 19, but still, uh, so yeah, just a, a sweet fun movie.

[00:14:36] And it felt like, especially after the last handful of stuff from Pixar, like a real kind of return to, uh, better stories, because I really like plenty of the other ones that have come out in the last couple of years are fine or not even the last couple of years in the last like year and a half. Some of them aren't even really fine.

[00:14:58] Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna get [00:15:00] into it too much, but, you know, Encanto was fine. Luca was fine. 

[00:15:07] Nicole: I liked those two. Yeah, they were fine. I liked seeing 

[00:15:10] Sean: red a lot more. Yeah. Turning red, 

[00:15:12] Nicole: um, turning, turning red. See, this is my problem. I am incapable of calling this fucking movie by the correct name.

[00:15:18] That's okay. This is beyond this episode. I've been calling it, seeing red, like to other people a lot, and people always know what I mean, and some of them don't even know I'm wrong about the name, but it's, my brain has just decided that my mouth will not say the word turning in the title of this film.

[00:15:36] And I apologize for that listeners, but yeah, I thought, I thought turning red was great. It's hovering, uh, right under my top five. Like, it was definitely in my top five, uh, of the year, so far earlier in the year. And I, my sister's kids like it too. So hopefully one of these days they'll wanna watch that with me instead of some of the other stuff they wanna watch with me.

[00:15:57] But, you know, uh, [00:16:00] it's, it's, it's fine. I don't wanna even try to pretend to draw connections between turning red. We need to talk about Cosby and fire island. These are all very different films. 

[00:16:13] Sean: more, more than a little bit. Um, I think that, um, well, I mean fire Island's about a group of friends, right? It's you know, isn't it somewhat.

[00:16:25] Nicole: Yes. There, you and we need to talk about Cosby is not boy, 

[00:16:29] Sean: I'm not going there. Uh, but uh, turning red is about a group of friends. So there's a connection there. That's true. Turning 

[00:16:36] Nicole: red and fire island are both 

[00:16:38] Sean: about, um, to friends and changes, you know, romantic comedies. They're all about changes, changes in romance.

[00:16:46] There's a little bit of, is there romance in turning red? Not 

[00:16:49] Nicole: exactly. They're all films that, um, address taboos 

[00:16:57] Sean: mm-hmm . [00:17:00] 

[00:17:00] Nicole: I mean, including some that shouldn't be taboos, some taboos I think are good and helpful to a society and some should not be there. Yeah. Um, like talking about menstruation, for example, should not be taboo.

[00:17:12] And yet lots of people got big mad at turning red. Oh my God. They got so. Why did my child have to hear the word period? Why did my child have to see like an animated drawing of like a tampon box for half a second? Yeah. In my house, I keep on my tampons under lock and key so that my beautiful son will never have to see them.

[00:17:33] Sean: that's so fucking stupid. And then you get, and then you get all these stories on, on, you know, I'll occasionally. not on Reddit directly, but like when I'm scrolling TikTok, like these, these stories that are read where it's like, you know, what's some, somebody, something really stupid somebody did. And like half of them, if women get involved in the conversation, like half of them are about my boyfriend, not understanding periods.

[00:17:59] And I'm just like, [00:18:00] how did. We know how, I mean, I know, I know how 

[00:18:04] Nicole: Gutting public 

[00:18:05] Sean: education is part of it. Well, gutting public education is part of it, but I didn't need public education to help me with that because my mother talked about it plenty, uh, or made a point about it. So, um, but yeah, I also, I actually, she, I actually missed health class because moving during that time, cuz when I was in, in seventh grade, they didn't do the health class in seventh grade, the seventh, it was for eighth grade and I moved out of country in eighth grade and where I moved, they did the health class in ninth grade.

[00:18:34] Then I moved back to the 

[00:18:37] Nicole: us. So this is why you don't understand where babies come from.

[00:18:44] Sean: I don't care where babies come from. I don't, I don't like them and I don't wanna be around them. . 

[00:18:50] Nicole: Um, yeah, I, I, in case our listeners haven't clocked this, we did say the recording date, this recording date also happens to [00:19:00] be the very day after the Supreme court as expected, struck down Roe versus Wade. So it's a day when I'm extra uncharmed by, uh, SI men thinking the just completely factual and factually incorrect things that they think about various organs and how they work.

[00:19:19] Sean: Yeah. No people who can't even have a conversation about that stuff. Not only shouldn't be legislating or anywhere near, like in, in judgment of stuff like that, like they shouldn't have those jobs in the first place. 

[00:19:33] Nicole: They shouldn't be alive in the first place. Let's be real. They're was sucking up a whole lot of oxygen that we 

[00:19:38] Sean: need for other stuff.

[00:19:39] Listen, listen, I'm not saying that dead judges can't make decisions. 

[00:19:44] Nicole: I am. However saying that I did recently rewatch the Pelican brief I don't know if you remember the plot of that, but we, I, 

[00:19:50] Sean: we watched it recently, I think, or I was gonna rewatch it recently. Um, cuz I enjoy those nineties thrillers, but I can't remember the details.

[00:19:59] Like I can never just [00:20:00] look it up later. Detail, 

[00:20:00] Nicole: just look it up later. I'm not mentioning it for any reason. It has nothing to do with current events at all. Um, but yeah, so that's, listeners check out the Pelican brief Denzel and Julia in fine form, I think is still on HBO max 

[00:20:17] Sean: at one of, at, at, at both of their sort of, I don't wanna say peaks, but like definitely in that peak era for both of them, 

[00:20:25] Nicole: it really was.

[00:20:26] And this also is reminding me that I was watching like Alan Pakula thrillers for a while and then kind of fell off it and maybe I should get back on it because they were. Super exciting. And I can't wait until consenting adults is streaming for free somewhere. Cuz I don't wanna pay for that. But I do wanna watch that.

[00:20:42] I don't know if you remember consenting 

[00:20:43] Sean: adults, Sean. No, I don't think I remember the title, but I don't remember the movie 

[00:20:47] Nicole: at all. It's like in 90, I remember the poster really well. It looks like all those. So many nineties posters did at least where it's like black background and it's like the actors with like the light coming on them.

[00:20:58] So they're like half in shadow and it's like Kevin [00:21:00] Klein clutching his wife played by. Um, I don't know if I Ann Archer or something. I don't know. Who's playing her. Um, Madeline St somebody and I just remember Kevin Kleins in it and he's like looking very concerned. I think it's about like a couple who there are some swingers next door.

[00:21:17] Oh, okay. But I'm like, it is not well reviewed, but I need to see this. Yeah. I need to see this immediately. 

[00:21:23] Sean: Very Nicole. 

[00:21:25] Nicole: um, yeah, it, it does. Doesn't it? what was your fourth favorite film of the year? Sean? 

[00:21:29] Sean: My fourth favorite film and I, and I know that this one is gonna shift before the end of the year, because it almost shifted like this week is the Batman.

[00:21:40] Mm. Um, and I say that because I rewatched it and I didn't enjoy it as much the second time, but I didn't dislike it and I still don't dislike it. I, I was not expecting, honestly, wasn't expecting to even watch this film. Um, you were way 

[00:21:56] Nicole: more down on it than I even was. You were just like, fuck this movie.

[00:21:59] Like, it 

[00:21:59] Sean: [00:22:00] just, it did like the, the trailers were so like, I'm like, I fucking saw this movie already. Um, I saw, I saw like all the Christopher Nolan ones, this just looks like another Christopher Nolan Batman movie. I don't wanna fucking see that again. I don't need that in my life. But then everybody was saying such positive things and it was doing so well.

[00:22:19] And I was like, I had a, I, I I'd taken a day off and I was like, screw it. I'm gonna, I'll go see it with my Alamo pass thing. And I enjoyed it. And I think like, as somebody who broadly speaking, like enjoys, like the Batman, the Batman universe of characters, like Batman himself, I think is problematic and I have issues, but like, I like the weirdness of the bat of the Batman stories.

[00:22:48] I like when they're a detective story, this was a detective story. Uh, they, it had a, it had a much more [00:23:00] cohesive to the world and to the city that they made, uh, to it, which I enjoyed because one of the problems that I did have with those Christopher Nolan movies is that Gotham city, because it was shot in like five different places.

[00:23:18] Had no cohesive feel to it had no cohesive look to it and it really should, like, it's supposed, it's not supposed to be a real city. It's supposed to be this heightened, weird Batman place version. Yeah. Like I love that. Like, honestly, like whether it's the Tim Burton movies or the Joel Schumacher movies, those like heightened, like versions of Gotham city are what I enjoy.

[00:23:47] And this is a more quote grounded version of it, but it's still more cohesive. Like it has like, like, it feels like the same, um, And so I enjoyed [00:24:00] that Pattinson was fine. Like he was like, honestly, Batman's not a hard character to play. Like, I'm pretty sure any, any, any basic acting student could do it, not to be, you know, too dismissive, but it's not a hard role to play.

[00:24:15] Uh, Paul Dano was pretty good in what he was doing and like, everybody was pretty good. It's it had, um, it was maybe a little bit long. Um, 

[00:24:29] Nicole: maybe, 

[00:24:30] Sean: yeah, it was maybe a little bit long. Uh, but it, it filled it, like, it didn't, it didn't feel like it was long because there was just like, oh, we are one plot point was being stretched out too far or anything like that.

[00:24:45] There was a lot of plot points. There was a lot of subplot. There was a lot of things that were going on in the movie. So I know when I watched it in the theater, I didn't feel like it was that long. Because I was like, oh, and you know, these parts are, are evolving. [00:25:00] Um, you know, and as somebody who's into, you know, that world, like it had a lot of little layers to that world, a lot of little things that were like a wink, you know, I'm always gonna enjoy the, the, the wink and nod to the, uh, to the fan servicey stuff.

[00:25:19] Like there's at this club, there's these twins. And I'm like, I wonder if those are supposed to be sort of a modernish version of Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum, which are like obscure never really touched on Alice in Wonderland themed, like Batman characters, like they're super like low down. And I looked it up and they are and I was like, okay, cool.

[00:25:46] They did like little things here and there. And Colin Farrell does a good job as the penguin character and. um, I think the thing that ultimately, like, I still really appreciate it in the end, is that [00:26:00] what the character learns he has, like, he actually has sort of an arc where he has some growth it's it's that if he goes around and is just all broody and, and, and, and it's just the, I am vengeance, blah, blah, blah, throughout it, uh, that leads to the wrong sort of, sort of thing.

[00:26:31] Like he's inspiring people to hurt other people that they think should be treated the way that he treats, uh, these folks. But instead he kind of learns that, oh, no, I have to be seen helping people. That's the thing that I need to be seen doing. Uh, people need to know. P people need somebody to help them.

[00:26:52] They don't need somebody to like hurt these other people. And that being the lesson that the character is supposed to be taking away at the end. And he [00:27:00] seems to be taking away at the end. Um, uh, I really appreciated was not expecting really, and really is the thing that at the very least for me, for that sort of film, uh, puts it above like the, the, um, Nolan films.

[00:27:21] So 

[00:27:23] Nicole: yeah. Um, this is not my top 10 top five and isn't close, but I agree with, um, almost at least everything you just said, and the only things I don't agree with. It's not that I disagree. It's just that I'm like, not as big a Batman fan, so I'm not picking up on and appreciating some of the layers that I think, um, you find rewarding in this, which sense?

[00:27:50] Um, but I mean, I agree with everything else you said, and I thought there were things in it. I really liked Jeffrey Wright was the big standout for me. Oh yeah. He's fantastic just like just MVP in the [00:28:00] cast. I can't tell you how much. I feel like I would not have had any patience for the Lieutenant Gordon character.

[00:28:07] If it wasn't being played by Jeffrey Wright or somebody else who is really bringing something to it and making them feel like a full character, like, yeah, like I don't hate this movie. I'm a Robert Patson fan. I don't think this role, um, shows him off, like to his best effect. I think he's a lot better in films where he gets to be kind of funny.

[00:28:32] And things like that. Like, I'm definitely not a fan of tenant. I like the Batman more than I like tenant, but I like Robert Pattinson in Tenent better than I like Robert Pattinson in the Batman, because he was just such a nice breath of fresh air in that fucking airless movie. Uh, but yeah, this, you know, Zoe Kravitz is good.

[00:28:51] I also liked Paul Dano. I just, you know, it just, for me, it wasn't enough yeah. To make it, you know, cause I'm just like, I would rather see not [00:29:00] a Batman movie or if I'm gonna see a Batman movie, I would want it to go further and be more like a last you know, um, the last Jedi type thing. Mm-hmm, where it's like a, a real subversion of the material in some way.

[00:29:14] And this, this isn't a subversion of it, but I do agree. Like I agree with you that the ending was. I was happy. Mm-hmm for, if not happy. I was, I was pleased. I thought that was a better ending. I, I definitely, I think I like the dark knight more than you do, but I, I definitely think this was at least the best live action Batman movie since the dark night.

[00:29:35] And I definitely think it's better than the other two. Nolans like, that's not even a mm-hmm , you know, question. So like, I, you know, respect, respect to a degree to the movie. It was not my choice for number four though. Do you know what my choice was? I do, 

[00:29:48] Sean: but that's because I have the document in front of us, but I don't think that our audience does.

[00:29:52] So what was your number? 

[00:29:53] Nicole: Fourth can, no, my, my number four movie was, uh, Ti West's X. [00:30:00] The, is it tea? Is it tie. I thought it was T okay. But I don't know. I don't know. Well, I, I thought it was, it may well be Ty. It probably is. There is a track record as our listeners can probably attest to me, grossly mispronouncing all sorts of things on this show.

[00:30:14] Sean: So exactly like mispronouncing you're just MIS no, I'm just kidding. 

[00:30:19] Nicole: You know, that'd be funny if you need though. It's, it's been a really long week. I hate saying that to you when you've had COVID this week. That's what it's been a really fucking long week. Sean. um, it's all right. What was I talking about?

[00:30:32] X X, the fine film X, um, about people trying to go make a porno in Texas. and there's some problems, there's all sorts of, of problems. Just a few, like an alligator's some problems and a couple that has some issues in, in their relationship. I think, um, just a few, some needs that aren't being met, that sort of thing.

[00:30:58] Mm-hmm , it's about filmmaking. [00:31:00] It's about, uh, sex. It's about intimacy. It's about really, really good suspenseful horror movie sequences that gen genuinely have you at the edge of your seat and just feeling delighted with however they resolve. Um, it's got some genuinely good performances in it. Mm-hmm from basically the entire fucking cast.

[00:31:22] I can't, um, there's more that I'll say, but I have a feeling you're gonna have things to say, and we're gonna keep talking about this. So I don't wanna say everything right now, but very excited for the prequel that's coming out. Yes. Which with me a goth I'm thrilled. I think this is the best tea or Thai west film I've ever seen.

[00:31:39] I I've enjoyed. Most of his other stuff I've seen. And this was, I think this was great. I 

[00:31:46] Sean: I'd say it's probably one of the, one of the ones that I would, um, re-watch, which I, I don't think I've ever really re-watched any of his films. Like I enjoyed them. I enjoyed was the ins the in keepers and, [00:32:00] um, I re-watched house of the devil then house of the devil, but I rewatch any like part.

[00:32:04] Yeah. But I haven't rewatched any of 'em. I would rewatch this one probably. And I definitely wanna watch that prequel. I'm thrilled that they made it at the same time. So mm-hmm and that they just didn't tell anybody. And then it's like at the end of the film, there's this tease of the prequel. Um, so, 

[00:32:21] Nicole: and it's basically the same film as the Batman.

[00:32:24] Sean: It's basically the same film. I mean, I think they both like ENS, mostly ensemble films. Like they have like characters that are at the center of 'em, but they've got really good performances across, um, across them. You know, you got, you got me go, you got Jeffrey Wright, both kind of anchoring the casts. Um, a lot of 

[00:32:45] Nicole: dark, 

[00:32:47] Sean: lots of really dark.

[00:32:49] Both of them definitely like franchise connected. Like both of them are setting up like a next film. So, you know, uh, both, uh, [00:33:00] yeah, the end of the Batman setting up their like, you know, we're gonna do the joker. Eventually we gotta do the joker. I don't know if you've seen the, did you see, you can see it on, um, HBO now, but there's the cut scene where you act where there's there was actually like a scene between Batman and the joker in it.

[00:33:17] I heard about that. You don't get like a full view of him, but they decided to make him like gross, like 

[00:33:28] Nicole: really nasty. You see a little bit of him, you see him, you see him briefly in the Mo 

[00:33:32] Sean: in the movie. Cuz I saw in the movie itself. Yeah. You see like chunks of it. But like, like even in the scene where you see the two of them together, they keep it really like just bits and pieces.

[00:33:41] But he's like the, the smile thing is, you know, it's not the cut thing. It's like this very disturbing looking deformity. Um, and he seems to have burns and stuff on the restaurant with gross anyway, which also makes it very horror, like, which is like X [00:34:00] 

[00:34:02] Nicole: true. I do like it's what's his face? Like Barry Keo.

[00:34:05] Yeah. Barry Keo. Well, I like, I like, he was great in killing of a sacred deer. I, I just I'm so tired 

[00:34:11] Sean: of the choker. Oh no same, same choker. And. I, I, I, I think I did enjoy the idea of making him looking really physically unappealing though. Like, because the last, what, 20 or 15 years we've had hot joker, 

[00:34:30] Nicole: basically.

[00:34:31] I don't think so, but somebody thinks 

[00:34:33] Sean: so, but, but Joaquin, Phoenix is in attractive man 

[00:34:38] Nicole: and 

[00:34:38] Sean: broadly speaking, J J people 

[00:34:41] Nicole: believe Jared Leto, somebody thought that was a 

[00:34:44] Sean: good design. Somebody thought that was a good design. And he is like, by typical standards, normative standards and attractive man. And he Ledger's an attractive man, even with the scars on his face, they didn't do that much to him.

[00:34:59] [00:35:00] Like he's an attractive man. So, I mean, and back in the eighties, like Jack Nicholson, wasn't like the height of his sort of romantic lead or anything like that. But so. You know, like leaning into being like, no, no, he's supposed to be scary. Let's actually make him like somebody you don't wanna look at, I think is an interesting choice.

[00:35:25] Um, I would still probably pull away if they're like, no, we're gonna do like a whole joke joker. Soling next. It'd still be like, I don't know guys, although I do like Matt Reeves, like, uh, his, his planet, the apes films were actually pretty good. And, and I, how did you see him? They're they're they're worthwhile like the first one.

[00:35:47] Wasn't his, he picked up, but Tim. After 

[00:35:50] Nicole: Tim Burton, right? 

[00:35:51] Sean: Uh, well, there's the Tim Burton one, but then there's the, uh, there's that one there, James Franco has the, it, uh, [00:36:00] man, this, this is like 2009 or 2010 or something like that. And so they did, they did this, I, I think it was called rise of planet of the apes or something like that.

[00:36:10] Um, sounds right. And, uh, and it's basically doing a version of like, how do the apes become like super smart and it's James Franco's fault because he was trying to cure Alzheimer's and anyway, I don't think Matt Reeves did the first one, but he did like the next. Three, I think two or three, uh, films, which kind of chart like this conflict between the, the apes who are getting smarter and humanity, which is sort of dying off and kind of trying to hold on.

[00:36:40] But they're, they're well done and they're as, as somebody who's judgmental about planet, the apes films, cuz uh, I have a particular fondness for the sort of the original and the, um, and at least one of the original sequels. Um, I, I real, I think is really good. [00:37:00] Um, well the others, I mostly I'm like, oh, this is camp and fun and I'll watch the people and the terrible, uh, ape outfits sort of like do their thing.

[00:37:10] Um, so yeah, so I I'd probably give another one of those a chance, but yeah, they'll both be franchises essentially, even if, even if they only both only get like one more film, so, but we'll, we'll, we'll find out. Um, yeah. And

[00:37:29] Nicole: they both feature heavy prosthetics on young conventionally, attractive actors to transform them that we could discuss the, um, pros and cons and problematics of that as well. But that's another 

[00:37:42] Sean: connection between them now. Yeah. It's true. Colin Ferrells, like prosthetics to make 'em look like co pot and, uh, and he's not really young anymore, but 

[00:37:51] Nicole: no, but that was, think I was just thinking of Barry Keo as the 

[00:37:54] Sean: joker.

[00:37:54] Oh yeah. There's that terms of what you were talking. Yeah. Yeah. But definitely I think, I think it's arguable that the, that the, [00:38:00] um, that the what's his name, I just said his name. Colin Farrell prosthetics are probably problematic in a similar way to the Mia goth old lady ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:38:14] Nicole: Yeah. I was the only commentary was on the young part.

[00:38:18] That is another, but I, if I had omitted the young part of my description then, and I still think that's an excellent point and that, that, that bolsters my point words. What are they? Yeah. How do we figure out which ones are supposed to come out of our mouths? I don't know anymore. It's been a long week.

[00:38:36] What was our th what was our third favorite? Should we talk about those? 

[00:38:39] Sean: Which is, yeah. What was your third favorite? 

[00:38:42] Nicole: My third favorite. Yeah. Well, my third favorite film of 2022 so far is David CRO and Burke's crimes of the future. And I do wanna talk about it, but, but I also, just, before we talk about it, I am bursting to know Sean, [00:39:00] what was your third favorite film?

[00:39:01] Nick? 2022 so far. 

[00:39:03] Sean: I have such a surprise for you, Nicole. Yeah, such a 

[00:39:06] Nicole: God. I love surprises. I love 

[00:39:08] Sean: my third favorite film of 2022 was also crimes of the future by David Kronenberg. Whoa. Oh my 

[00:39:17] Nicole: goodness. Who could have foresee what record square bulge, man, I loved this film. I, I 

[00:39:26] Sean: really enjoyed the film it's um, I think I come to it like really having like some expectations from Kronenberg in terms of this kind of film.

[00:39:38] And in some ways it felt a little cleaner than I wanted it to be. Like, I almost wanted it to be a messier film from him, but I really like, I liked the film. I liked what it was building on. I liked, um, I liked that it didn't go too deep into explanations, which is great when he does, you know, he just [00:40:00] doesn't really go that deep into explanations.

[00:40:02] And I, you know, I love that. And so many of the characters were fun. Those repair, those repair texts, I would watch like a whole movie at just about, just about those repair texts. 

[00:40:12] Nicole: They reminded me a little bit actually of a character in a current script of yours a little 

[00:40:17] Sean: bit. You, oh, the, the, the repair guy, actress, 

[00:40:23] Nicole: the actress in a Mago who, um, has a little bit of a, you know, special talent for violence and takes some glee in certain kinds of violence.

[00:40:32] Oh, that, that character, 

[00:40:33] Sean: yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:40:35] Nicole: A bit of her vibe. I, I did think of her actually watching crimes of the future with the two, like. Repair people like mechanic characters who that's fun, have an interesting side to them. There are, yeah, they were fun. I'd watch them the like the, you know, Oregon registry folks and all of that.

[00:40:56] It's great. Like I honestly, [00:41:00] especially today, for reasons we discussed earlier, you know, I really appreciate a film right now where it's about in part regulating human bodies, right. Mm-hmm and attempts to do that. I, I was actually talking to a friend of the show, Ashley Blackwell yesterday about this movie and why I liked it so much.

[00:41:21] And part of why I like it is it's a political film in that it is a film with very strong and real resonance. A range of different political issues, but it's not, it's not any kind of one-to-one allegory. Mm-hmm, it, it's not really a polemic it's has a point of, but it has a point of view. It's not like David Cronenberg's absolving himself from, you know, oh, I'm just, I'm just telling a story about some stuff I don't care about any of it or how it shakes out.

[00:41:56] Like he clearly has horses in the race. Yeah. But he [00:42:00] also isn't like, here is my statement about how it is. It's not a manifesto. Right, right. It's, it's a movie. It's what a movie should be of. Like, I am interested in these themes. I am compelled by these themes. I'm gonna take these themes and play them out in a story.

[00:42:17] Right. Rather than like writing a speech. 

[00:42:20] Sean: And, and 

[00:42:22] Nicole: yes, I really appreciated that right now. I really, really 

[00:42:25] Sean: did. What, what I thought one, one thing on that that I thought was kind of interesting is I saw a little clip of Christian Stewart being interviewed about the movie. And she'd apparently asked him, was like, oh, like, did you like, you know, bang this out during, uh, during quarantine or something like during COVID.

[00:42:43] And he is like, apparently he wrote it during the nine in the nineties. I'm sure it's been rewritten, but apparently he wrote it in the nineties and I'm like, yeah, because it's what it's touching on is still very, very, it's more relevant, you know, I'm sure he added a little bit more about the accumulation of [00:43:00] plastics, um, being part of what, uh, drives people, the mutation.

[00:43:04] So for people who haven't seen it, like, uh, PE people in this world of the film are growing new organs that nobody really sure what's up with them and nobody feels pain. um, and it 

[00:43:17] is, 

[00:43:17] Nicole: or very few people do at least a couple people still do. 

[00:43:21] Sean: Uh, and it's, it's suggested that, you know, there was a, there people accumulated more plastic in their bodies because we have microplastics out there and stuff like that.

[00:43:32] Uh, and so that was ultimately what caused, uh, or may, may have been what caused the, the, the variations to happen. And I mean, I think it was interesting. I think it was also really interesting that they were talking about, you know, people growing these new organs, but they were getting removed before anybody could figure out what they were supposed to do, uh, right.

[00:43:55] Except for the people who were keeping them and [00:44:00] figured out that they meant they were actually processing industrial waste with it. Um, 

[00:44:09] Nicole: It it's a hopeful film I'm saying. 

[00:44:11] Sean: Yeah, I think, I think it is it's I? 

[00:44:14] Nicole: Yeah, no continue. 

[00:44:16] Sean: Sorry. I'm just excited. No, no, no. I just rambled for a little bit. Please feel free to throw in your 

[00:44:21] Nicole: it's two sounds, you know, it's one I've, I've actually heard a little bit of criticism of the film that I understand, although I don't agree with, which is from people being like this feels very nineties, basically.

[00:44:32] Like he could have just put this out in the nineties. It's reminiscent of a lot of stuff that was going on in the nineties in terms of discussions about body modification and things like that. And it's true when I was watching it, I was like, there are ways in which this feels very nineties to me, but that doesn't bother me because I'm like, unfortunately, so much of stuff that was relevant in the nineties is still relevant today.

[00:44:56] Just even more so, um, so [00:45:00] I don't, I, I don't care that he didn't refresh it more than he did to make it like more. Forward thinking than it already is like, it's I, I feel like I need this film right now, so I'm yeah. I'm, I'm happy with it. And I, most of the criticism I've heard of it, I just don't, I, I just don't relate to at all, like, it's weird.

[00:45:23] Yeah. It's CRO and Burke also, like I found it, what people talk about less is it's a very kind of, like I said, hopeful, but also in certain ways, very sweet, empathetic. Yeah. You know, film intimacy. Yeah. And that's a, for me, I know, I know people have walked out of it or whatever, and like fine. And I know my barometer is not the same as everyone's, but the hardest part for me to watch of this movie was like the opening scene.[00:46:00] 

[00:46:00] which I don't wanna spoil for people, but it's not gory. It's just up upsetting. No, it's upsetting the gory stuff. 

[00:46:08] Sean: It's pretty tame for him. 

[00:46:10] Nicole: It's pretty for him. And also the people experiencing it are not feeling pain. Yeah. Which completely changes the meaning of watching someone like getting cut up. I mean, it's a, it's on a, most of the gory stuff we're seeing in this film is basically like on a continuum on like a BDSM continuum.

[00:46:31] Yeah. It's that kind of a context. It's not what I would consider violence. No, no. And I know some audiences may have trouble with. . Um, but for me, so much of the response I heard made just no sense to me as I was watching it, cuz I was so I was so immediately taken by the world and following the story. And like you said, I really like that.

[00:46:53] He doesn't explain everything. He just drops you in. If there is exposition, you do get like enough chunks [00:47:00] of information that you can follow and you get it and all that, but they don't explain like why pain went away, no. Or something like that or how that happened. And we don't need to know that in order to follow the story and accept that that's the case and follow these characters and empathize with them.

[00:47:15] And you know, I, I love this movie. I thought it was fascinating and it made me feel hope. And that's something in really short supply right now. Yes. And you know, and, and also Kristen Stewart. Yeah. Very surprising, delightful, comedic performance from. In this she's, she's 

[00:47:36] Sean: wonderful. Really enjoyed it. She's wonderful.

[00:47:37] She's fucking good. She's she's really, everybody's really good in it. Like everybody's good. It's another, it's another, it's another one with, with that as, uh, going for it. Um, 

[00:47:48] Nicole: everyone did a good job in crimes of the future. Good job. Crimes of the future. You, and, and now I own it on voodoo so I can watch it again.

[00:47:55] And if you wanna watch it again, I can give you my login. not you [00:48:00] listeners. Not anybody. Actually. I would never share a login. No, for a streaming service. I would never do that. I was one, one thing that's funny to me about crimes of the future is it caused me to say a thing I never say, which is, this is not a horror movie.

[00:48:20] It's really not. It's really. And like, like it's, it's horror adjacent. I don't really care. I'm not gonna die on this hill, but it's just funny, cuz I'm always the one who's like. Everything's a horror movie, big tent horror. And this was, I'm watching this. And I was just like, to me seeing it as a horror movie, and I'm very happy to hear, uh, arguments to the contrary.

[00:48:41] But to me seeing it as a horror movie kind of undermines the film, cuz I'm like this isn't really body horror. It's body horror adjacent. Yeah. But horror is not what this film is trying to stoke in the audience at all. It's like I was thinking I'm like, this is more [00:49:00] kind of sci-fi noir is maybe what I would call it.

[00:49:02] It's closer to scanners, 

[00:49:04] Sean: which is also only really horror. Adjacent. It has scanners has more horror to it, but yeah, 

[00:49:12] Nicole: I would consider scanners horror in a big tent sense because there are these horror aspects that are, they are trying to horrify the audience. Yeah. You are supposed to be horrified when you see dudes head explode.

[00:49:23] Yeah. Things like that. That's not how the, but this doesn't have that really. This doesn't have that at all. When you're seeing blood and organs and things like that, it's not horrible. It's a lot more clinical in it, or, yeah. And it's not it's, but it's not a film that's generally working on trying to provoke fear or suspense even so much.

[00:49:47] Like it's not really a thrill it's, you know, it's not, and it's not like, and it's funny because obviously like it's called a horror movie everywhere. Cause I guess people watch it and they're seeing people cut open [00:50:00] and they're like, this is a horror movie because I am seeing blood and organs, but the they're not cutting people open to try to horrify or scare you.

[00:50:09] Like if you're not able to watch the material, cuz you're too squeamish. I totally get that. But that doesn't make it a horror movie. That's like saying it's a horror movie. If you watch like the operation, a show I used to watch in the nineties where you could just watch it. Yeah. 

[00:50:24] Sean: I know the show getting operated off.

[00:50:25] Like I can't, I think, I, I think I saw part of that when I was flipping channels at one point and I was like, I'm not watching this. I don't wanna. Ooh. It's 

[00:50:37] Nicole: I, I, I used to watch that show a lot. Anyway. I believe you. I 

[00:50:40] Sean: believe that you would do that. 

[00:50:44] Nicole: Yeah. You can see why crimes. The future is like, I'm like, I don't know what people are talking about.

[00:50:49] You're like, this 

[00:50:49] Sean: is a comedy. What are you talking about? This is a romantic comedy. 

[00:50:53] Nicole: Um, it borderless it's a little more, it borders that more than horror. Yeah. Anyway, we need to pay bills. Don't we? [00:51:00] Yeah. All of '

[00:51:01] Sean: em. Huh? All of them. Well, that was well, well, that was, was some advertising. 

[00:51:08] Nicole: We paid all our bills.

[00:51:09] Thank God. They all got paid and we have more films to talk about. We have other favorite. Sean, what was your second favorite film of the year? 

[00:51:18] Sean: My second favorite film of the year was X the tie or T oh, or toe or two west film X. Um, I went and saw it with our pal, uh, Lamar McClain, who? Um, friend of the show.

[00:51:32] Yeah. Who, who joined us last year, uh, with the other, uh, members of the brothers or another brothers from another planet podcast, uh, to talk about, uh, what did we talk about? We talked about parasite and surviving the game, surviving the game. That's the one I was thinking of. Uh, so yeah. See, he said, Hey, do you wanna see this movie?

[00:51:53] And I said, sure, I wanna see that movie. Uh, I, I wasn't sure what my plans were for it, cuz I was like, Jess doesn't I [00:52:00] was like, Jess doesn't wanna see it. So yeah, I'll go see it with you. Um, so it was, yeah, it was, I didn't really know that much about it. Like, um, one of the things that. broadly speaking, like, I'll see like a little bit about films now or watch a trailer maybe, and then that's it.

[00:52:19] Like, I, I kind of don't read up very much on like the film films are what's coming up and I actually increasingly avoiding it. And so it was really nice to kind of, I was like, oh, this kind of had a, you know, the, the trailer, what I saw or heard had kind of a classic Texas chainsaw, like vibe to it. And then the film did exactly that.

[00:52:41] And I think unlike most imitators of Texas chainsaw massacre, it, it really, I think captured like the essence of, of like what works in the original and what works in like the better imitators, [00:53:00] you know, you've got, you've got characters. Um, you got like a core character that you can identify pretty quick, that you can pretty well relate to.

[00:53:09] And then other characters that stand out, uh, pretty well. And, um, unlike, unlike a lot of horror films, that'll end up watching sometimes these slasher films of the last maybe 20 years or so, like there were, I don't, I don't think there was anybody where I was like, oh, I'm, I'm looking forward to this guy dying.

[00:53:28] Like it was, I think, I think I liked pretty much everybody, even, even the, even the ones that I didn't like as much, like there was something about most of them where they were enjoyable characters. So it wasn't like, oh, I'm waiting for this guy to die. Um, yeah. so which I appreciated. It's like, cuz that, that can be fun too when they do that.

[00:53:51] But it's, it's not, I think it's not as interesting or compelling for the storytelling to be like, oh yeah, we're gonna have, you know, we're gonna give you a bunch of guys that [00:54:00] you wanna see die so that you can just enjoy that from yeah. 

[00:54:05] Nicole: It's more of, that's just like the slashers as a amusement park ride.

[00:54:12] Yeah. Like kind of, not also at, not that I'm gonna draw these lines in any kind of firm way, but there's a certain kind of thing where it's like, it's a formula. If you enjoy the formula, you know what you're gonna get, you're gonna go on, you're gonna get on the ride and it's enjoyable, but that's not the same thing as watching a film where you, you feel like it's nourishing you in some way beyond just giving you a fun theme park ride experience.

[00:54:33] Yeah. Which I think, I think this is, they feel like real people. I, even though people, I didn't like. Particularly, I didn't wanna see die because it felt like seeing a real person maybe, you know, die. Yeah. You know, which is harder to take than a cardboard cut out stereotype. Who's fucking annoying. Like we get in most, in at least a lot of slasher films.

[00:54:55] Sean: Yeah, for sure. And I mean, and one of the other things I appreciate is [00:55:00] that, um, I mean, it's, it's partly fueled by the setting, but it's also, um, like they actually, they decided, Hey, we're gonna make a film and it's gonna be about people trying to make a porno film, but they're, but they're trying to make, you know, they're, they, they treated them like what they were, which was independent filmmakers, who just happened to be making a film where people were having sex in it.

[00:55:26] And it also didn't like, avoid like. Showing people having sex. It wasn't my God at which, which gets so tired. It's like, okay, we're gonna have like people who do this, or we're gonna have like, we're in re reference 

[00:55:42] Nicole: to that. Yeah. Wasn't really necessary in the movie about filming, um, a porno to see people having sex.

[00:55:48] I don't know. It felt gratuitous to me. I just 

[00:55:52] Sean: I'm Jo I'm no, I know 

[00:55:53] Nicole: you are. I know you are, but no, I know, you know, I know, you know, I just wanna make sure the listers know that I'm saying the [00:56:00] opposite of 

[00:56:00] Sean: what I actually think. Well, I'm, I'm tired. I'm tired of the, of the, I mean, there's definitely like. Uh, instances where, where, where things like that are gratuitous, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[00:56:15] Like, I'm just gonna say like, like most filmmaking is gratuitous in and of itself. Yes, there is no, there is there, there is no actual, like, to be real. There is no value to filmmaking beyond for the most part. What is gratuitous? Like? It is not something you need to live. You can't eat it. You can't breathe it.

[00:56:37] You can't wear it to keep you warm when it's cold. Like it is won't super on 

[00:56:43] Nicole: its own. I want, when people talk about gratuitous sex or gratuitous violence, I want them to explain what they mean by that, and then explain why that is a bad thing. 

[00:56:54] Sean: I think, I think it's fair to, I think it's fair to discuss things when it's exploitative [00:57:00] when exploit time.

[00:57:02] Yeah, no, no, no. You know what I'm saying? It's it's, it's like, it's agree with like criticizing. These is like, is it exploitative? 

[00:57:10] Nicole: Like, or otherwise 

[00:57:11] harmful 

[00:57:12] Sean: or otherwise harmful and, you know, sometimes for sure. And I think, you know, as, as, uh, you know, we've had plenty of conversations and we've had plenty of conversations with the, with the film, with the, with the actors and actresses that we've worked with, where there were definitely situations that they were put on where somebody was trying to be exploitative or somebody was being exploitative.

[00:57:32] And you know, that I don't support that at all. I don't appreciate that. But, 

[00:57:38] Nicole: um, no, in fact, I'd go so far as to say we oppose that, you know, but that's usually when people are making these arguments, they're not talking about the experience for the actors. No, they're 

[00:57:49] Sean: in their mind, uncomfortable watching this.

[00:57:52] It's like, okay, then don't watch. 

[00:57:54] Nicole: I want for, um, information being available to people who want it about certain kinds of [00:58:00] content. So you can like, you know, I'm fine. Sure. If it letting people know there's a sexual assault scene in this movie, mm-hmm . So if you don't wanna see that avoid this movie, I think that's a great thing to do and very reasonable, but that doesn't make the scene in and of itself, you know, good or bad, or should, or shouldn't be there just dependent on whether any individual person wants to see that or not.

[00:58:19] That's a different question. Yeah. And I think, and one that's mm-hmm, one that there can be debate and disagreement on. It's not like we're all gonna fall in lock step on every single instance or anything like that, but we're just, I'm getting really tired of this very childish kind of analysis of film.

[00:58:38] That's that's viewing things. Like a STH is the weird phrase that keeps popping into my, I keep hearing that. Absolutely only a thinks that I keep fucking hearing that in my head. And I don't know why, but I keep all the, I mean, I do know why, because it keeps coming up in life where people are acting like sths and just like viewing things in these weird absolutes where I'm like, [00:59:00] are, are we five?

[00:59:02] You know, what, what are we doing here? Like we might disagree. That's that's fine too. There's all sorts of content in films that reasonable people could be. Like, I honestly don't think the filmmakers should have put this out there because I feel like it does more harm than good. That's fine. You know, in any given.

[00:59:18] And I might in a, a, something buddy might say that about a film that I would be like, I think the filmmaker should have put it here because blah, blah, blah. And that's all fine. Mm-hmm but like talking about things like sex scenes overall or violence overall as if it's this homogenous thing, that's just a matter of degrees.

[00:59:37] Well, if there's more nudity and the scene goes on longer, then the sex scene is more gratuitous. If the violence goes on longer and there's more gore, then it's more gratuitous or something. And that doesn't, it's, it's, that's not what those words mean. 

[00:59:49] Sean: No. And, and I think your, your, your, your characterization of childish is, is, is very appropriate because I think that's where we see a good chunk of [01:00:00] some of this coming from, like, there's the, you know, there's the usual sources, there's the usual Christian right.

[01:00:05] Sources. And there's the usual like Pearl collects, but there's also a lot of young folks who, who are like coming into their, like, tons, trying to. Understand and navigate these and trying to understand like the nuances of exploitation versus like comfort versus what kind of content do I want to consume.

[01:00:27] And, you know, they, they end up going like way too many of these young folks, like anything remotely, um, ends up becoming this thing, uh, this thing where they're, where they're like, oh, well, that's just, it is unnecessary. We don't need it. And you know, it's, uh, you do need it. Um, you do need it. And the, and the very fact that you're gonna react to it this way shows me that not only do, did, do you need it, you did need it.

[01:00:55] You needed to have caught some sort of like sex scene [01:01:00] accidentally in a film when you were younger, so that it wouldn't be this. You know, deeply shocking thing for you. You needed to like stay up late when mom and dad were, were asleep and like watch the R rated movies you weren't allowed to on cable.

[01:01:16] Like, um, you know, instead of your only exposure to anything sexual being like actual porn, like, which is not a, which, you know, I don't have a problem with porn. It's just like they have, they have, they have the hammer of if there's sex in it, it's porn. And so now if there's sex in anything it's porn, that's the, that's their hammer in nail 

[01:01:40] Nicole: and it's, and I mean, it all has to do with things that are like, I think about, um, those really unfortunate comments, uh, Billy Eilish made like last fall about porn.

[01:01:52] If you remember that, 

[01:01:53] Sean: like I vaguely recall, but, 

[01:01:55] Nicole: and it's like, she was basically talking about how she, you know, [01:02:00] started watching porn at a pretty young age and it gave her a lot of really. Fucked up ideas about sex and led to her like doing various things that she didn't actually wanna do. Cuz she just kind of thought that was yeah.

[01:02:12] What you do or whatever. And her takeaway from that is like porn is bad. My takeaway from that is like, wow, we don't have any fucking sex education in this country. Now do we? And parents are definitely not picking up the slack. Cause a part of me was like, this sounds to me more like a criticism of your parents than a criticism of 

[01:02:32] Sean: porn.

[01:02:32] And in her case in particular, like she was homeschooled. So her parents doubly dropped the 

[01:02:38] Nicole: ball there. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't want to take anything away from her talking about her personal experience. I'm not doubting that it sound like. Yeah. If when I was 12, I started learning about sex by watching whatever porn I found be.

[01:02:53] I mean, when I was 12, you couldn't easily find porn. That's the thing, right? Like when I was young, you had to work for your porn. Like. [01:03:00] Ah, back in the day mm-hmm , but you know, it is true. And it is a complicated thing that with the internet in most homes, it makes it very easy for young people who don't necessarily yet have the framework to process what they're seeing to get access to a lot of information that, you know, could be harmful to their development.

[01:03:21] If they're getting it at a time when they also don't have the grounding to be able to contextualize it, that's, that's a real problem. I don't wanna pretend that problem doesn't exist, but people wanna jump so fast to, well, then we just shouldn't have porn. And I'm like, there's a lot of things we shouldn't have.

[01:03:38] Then if this is our standard of, if children have completely unregulated access to it, it can harm them. It means we can't have it. 

[01:03:47] Sean: I 

[01:03:47] Nicole: think it's, I I'm, it's breaking my brain. The logic people are it's 

[01:03:51] Sean: it's it's ridiculous. Cuz the thing that we need is the counter narrative. Like one you yeah, we need to improve, um, [01:04:00] We need to improve, like what, what it is, what sex education is in schools.

[01:04:04] But the other thing is, is like movies need to have sex in it. Like adults have sex, it happens like romantic comedies should have people having sex. Like they don't have to like, you know, 

[01:04:16] Nicole: if you wanna criticize the quality of sex scenes that we have in a lot of movies, that's, that's very fair if you, but yeah, I agree with you.

[01:04:23] I think the answer is we have more sex scenes and more diverse sex scenes that, yeah. And more, I'm not saying every sex scene needs to be realistic either, or that the brown is on filmmakers to make things be realistic, but it is true that I get, I grew up seeing very monotonous sex scenes that were, you know, almost always heterosexual, um, you know, not realistic, but also like unrealistic in very similar ways.

[01:04:52] So you're seeing the same kind of shit over and over and over again. And I do think. That's harmful to a degree, but that's not true only of sex [01:05:00] scenes. That's about all the messaging that we are getting, and that is being reinforced and policed through the media that we consume in part, you know, and, and films are a piece of that.

[01:05:10] They're not all of it, but they're a piece of it. And, you know, did a lot of people get unrealistic expectations about sex from watching Hollywood sex scenes? Yeah. My answer to that is great. Let's have more sex scenes where there's a greater diversity of experience and people, and I'm glad that for one thing in sex scenes now, um, you see a lot more people going down on women than you used to mm-hmm that used to be phenomenally rare cuz you just get an NC 17 if that happened.

[01:05:38] Yeah. Or before that in X, like literally, and there's more of that. I think it's getting better and I think X is kind of a piece of that and um, The one thing I do wanna call back to talking about X, just cuz I would feel remiss if I didn't bring it up is you saw it in a theater. I saw it at home. I wondered [01:06:00] when I watched it at home.

[01:06:01] If I would've actually, I had this very conflicted thing of on the one hand, I really wish I had seen it in a theater to have the audience response to a lot of these great, uh, moments of just horror filmmaking. That would be really nice to have an audience response there for, but I was actually really glad to not have an audience response for all the stuff having to do with the character of the older woman and how horny she is.

[01:06:28] Mm-hmm , which is a big part of the plot. I don't wanna like spoil the whole movie cause I actually really want people to watch this movie. I think it's very good, but when I watched it. and me as someone who reacts to things, the way I do much, like we were talking about crimes in the future. I wasn't like when we see a naked old lady, I wasn't like I'm gonna die.

[01:06:52] I can't believe this is the most hideous thing. You know, that's not my reaction. I actually was very [01:07:00] appreciative of the fact that it was a film that, you know, talked about older women being horny, basically mm-hmm and that, that was a thing. And that sex is something that at least most people want in some way and is good for them to have and being sexually frustrated.

[01:07:21] is not a great situation. Um, even if you're older, like you don't necessarily just not care about sex anymore when you're older. Yeah. And I liked all that. I also am aware that it's a film that's very much in a very conventional horror way trading on an expected. I, I think an expected kind of shock value and horror yeah.

[01:07:41] In the audience. And so I just have conflicting feelings about that. I'm not gonna throw the movie out because of that. Um, but I did wanna mention it well, and, 

[01:07:51] Sean: and, and one thing I wonder is, as you're saying that is, does like, does the choice to make her. [01:08:00] Not, not casting an older woman, not casting an actual person to be the one to react to that.

[01:08:06] Or they did cast an actual person, but, but instead to have like the ma uh, you know, me goth doing double duty and being in heavy makeup for that, you know, I is that I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I don't know of if I have a, a take right now on whether or not that's better or worse, but it does seem like sort of a, a level of removal away from like Ew old people are gross.

[01:08:31] Um, Well, that's a way of it still doing it. It's still doing it, but it's, it's kind of saying like, okay, we didn't cast like an old person for you to be grossed out by an old person. We put somebody in like heavy prosthetic makeup for you to be grossed out by basic, 

[01:08:48] Nicole: by kind of a month. It kind of like a monster, but not really.

[01:08:52] Yeah. Which is, which is, it's just complicated. I don't know if it makes it better or worse. I think it makes it better in some ways to have [01:09:00] Mia goth play that character because it makes it draw an immediate parallel. You cannot avoid between the two characters played by Mia goth. Right. Which without getting into spoilers, I think intentionally drawing that parallel between them is useful in terms of looking at the themes being addressed and discussed in the film.

[01:09:19] Um, but yeah, ha I, I also think that having Mia goth play her, which. Not super mad about because then she's gonna play her again in the prequel. So on that level, I'm super psyched. Mm-hmm but it, it does, like you said, turn that character into a little bit more of a monster, which I don't love. I'm getting really tired of a thing that we all encounter a lot when we watch horror movies and things.

[01:09:46] And including some that I very much love where things like age or, um, when we were talking earlier about like the joker disfigurement of any kind of realistic sort [01:10:00] being directly translated to a kind of monstrosity. And that that view being encouraged is troubling to me and has real world implications that I don't think are great, but it's not easy to always tease that out directly from, you know, film, making a film that just engages with the fact that most of us have fears about aging.

[01:10:21] Whatever our age are and I age is, and we don't need to pretend that's not there. We don't need to avoid that as a topic. And if we delve into the topic, you're probably gonna create stuff that is going to play into and, or be perceived as being ageist, unless doing the thing I said earlier, isn't my favorite of like writing a speech instead of making a movie.

[01:10:46] Yeah. Like if you do something that's very didactic and you're like, I want to make it clear. I don't want anybody to be able to misunderstand my intentions as the filmmaker at any moment. So I'm gonna do, yeah. What is it it's in [01:11:00] like, um, you know, don't be a menace while drinking your juice in the hood. I think that's the one where every once in a while a character will like pop in from the side and be like, message whenever like , I haven't seen that movie, but okay.

[01:11:11] You should watch it when there's like a social message and they wanna make sure the audience gets that like, no, there is a message here, you know, and that's. Sometimes I appreciate polemical films or didactic films. I'm not saying never, but that's not what I want. Most of my diet of filmmaking to be, or the only way I want people to engage issues.

[01:11:31] And I, I recognize that something like, like I could watch this watching this with my husband at home, I could make an argument that the filmmaker isn't doing anything to encourage people, to see this prosthetic covered elderly woman's body as scary or her sexuality as being in any way Aran. Um, I could, I, I could make that argument and I think I.

[01:11:55] T west Thai west does have a lot of empathy for Pearl. I don't think he really [01:12:00] views her as a monster, but I think it would be naive to pretend he didn't understand how his filmmaking was doing that at the same time that it's doing other things right. At the same time. I think it's complicated. And I, I wondered though, if I had seen it in the theater, if I would've been able to enjoy the film as much, because I think if every time the Pearl character showed up and like gave a whiff of like being horny or naked, the whole audience was like recoiling and horror that would've impacted my ability to enjoy the film.

[01:12:32] Yeah. So just something I wanted, I wanted to raise it is definitely one of my top five films of the year. We'll see what happens by the end of 2022. But I would be very surprised if it doesn't end up in my top 10, because there's so much of. yeah. That I just love and overall, I think it's a really well made movie, but there's this somewhat thorny element to it that I just wanted to raise, cuz yeah, yeah, totally.

[01:12:56] That's what we do here. We talk about things. 

[01:12:58] Sean: You know, what else we talk 

[01:12:59] Nicole: [01:13:00] about my second favorite film of your second favorite film of the year. My second favorite film of the year. My second favorite film of the year is R R the action ex as they call it or, uh, rise, roar. Revolt is I believe what those three RS stand for.

[01:13:24] And that is what we see in this film. It is directed by SS Raja, Muley. It is the first film of his. I have seen I'm definitely gonna go and watch some of his earlier films. It's just like a three hour long action. Epic about. People fighting English colonizers in India. It's about like some colonizers kidnap this girl, Molly from a tribe.

[01:13:53] and, and they, they, you know, do some nefarious trickery and stuff and end up kidnapping this girl. But [01:14:00] unfortunately for them, that tribe has a protector who is a man named beam who is played by, who plays, who plays beam. Um, I believe, uh, NT Ramma RA Jr. NT Ramma RA Jr plays beam. And so he is on a mission to try to get this girl back.

[01:14:25] And at the same time, there is, um, like a guy who is working on the British side as, as a cop, basically, who is played by Ram Chiron. He plays a guy called Raju, as I recall. Believe that's correct. And one day through some various happenstance, the two of them, even though they're on kind of two different sides of this colonial fight, they'll see a child who needs rescuing and then, oh my God, this film was already in [01:15:00] gear, but then does it really kick into gear?

[01:15:02] Cuz I am telling you the action sequences in this fucking thing were just some of the best I've ever seen in my entire life. I kept like laughing out loud or just smiling or like just turning to my husband with this like goofy grin on my face because I was just so delighted and surprised by all this stuff happening.

[01:15:25] And it was nonstop entertainment about this friendship that forms between these two attractive men who nobody can kill and. But they've got this conflict and what's gonna happen about the conflict because they, they don't actually know everything about each other's backgrounds. And what happens though, is you get to see a lot of English, colonizers get just fucking, absolutely leveled for like three hours in the best action sequences you've ever seen in your life.

[01:15:53] And also get an absolutely touching story of friendship. And also [01:16:00] it's a musical and there's also dance offs. So it's, it's one of this is maybe gonna be one of my favorite movies all the time. I wanna re-watch it right away. It's on Netflix. So if you have Netflix access, you can watch it. Like if you like action movies, if you like musicals, if you like stories of friendship, if you do not like English, colonizers, if any of those apply to you, then this, this is the film for you.

[01:16:24] I would recommend it to almost to anyone I think you and Jess should watch it. I think you'll both enjoy it. Yeah. 

[01:16:28] Sean: We'll probably, we'll probably end up watching it and at some point, uh, I've heard good things. Um, yeah, we just haven't gotten around to it yet. 

[01:16:36] Nicole: It's a good time. And I will say I wanted to watch it, but I was a little hesitant whenever we discussed it.

[01:16:42] Cause I'm like, eh, it is over three hours long, but it felt shorter than like 90 minute movies. Mm-hmm I watched like, it felt full cuz so much happens, but this is not a movie where you're gonna be feeling the need to check your phone. Cuz shit just keeps happening. And it's all awesome. So [01:17:00] rrr and it's based on, um, I believe that the events as depicted in the film are not necessarily super realistic, but the two guys that it's based on were real, um, revolutionaries in the 1920s, so.

[01:17:13] Okay, cool. FY I, so it's, you know, historical 

[01:17:17] Sean: too. So kids use it as homework. 

[01:17:22] Nicole: Definitely. Definitely. Um, I had a number one movie this year too. Did you, what 

[01:17:27] Sean: was your number one movie this year? Oh, 

[01:17:29] Nicole: you know, it was just like everything. Everywhere all at once. That was my number one point. Me too. You too. Oh my 

[01:17:37] Sean: God.

[01:17:37] Wow. Maybe it's because it's the best movie of the year. 

[01:17:41] Nicole: It is such a good movie. I was anticipating this one. Obviously this was one that, um, I've been very, very rarely seeing movies in public, as you obviously know, Sean, mm-hmm I, I don't go to movie theaters generally, unless it's a place where there's [01:18:00] a masking policy and everyone needs to be masked.

[01:18:02] Otherwise it's just, again, I'm trying to delay my second COVID infection because I would like my long C to not get worse, uh, which is likely to happen when I get infected by COVID again, mm-hmm um, but apparently it's my own fault, cuz either I'm making this all up and it's actually totally fine or I should just never leave my house again because really, if I, you know, How irresponsible of me to ever leave the house.

[01:18:29] This is what I'm getting. Um, but in any event, uh, I sadly waited until it was streaming, so I didn't get to see it until then. And I had a, I mean, this is a film that there was a lot of build up for because most people I know saw it and loved it. Who were my friends, at least everyone fucking loved it. So I can't say I went into it without expectations.

[01:18:51] I had pretty high expectations and it still surpassed them. Mm-hmm it was a delightful, original movie. I was [01:19:00] absolutely enthralled from the first frame, just when you're first getting introduced to this family before we even get into a multiverse or anything. Very weird when it's just kind of like, you know, this woman and her husband and kid and their laundromat and family and tax conflicts, I.

[01:19:19] I'll watch this for over two hours. No fucking problem. Like this cast, are you kidding me? And it had such, just a distinct feel from the jump. You're like, oh, I haven't seen this before. Mm-hmm this, this is not, nobody else could have made this movie. This, this definitely has the imprint of the Daniels on it.

[01:19:38] Yeah. And I, I say this as like, I didn't love Swiss army, man. I respected it. Um, I enjoyed it, but it didn't, it just didn't quite click with me. Mm-hmm in a way where I was like, yes, this is the weirdo movie for me. I was like, good for them. They did. They, they did a thing. I'm glad mm-hmm. Um, but I didn't, I didn't love it.

[01:19:58] It didn't super move me, [01:20:00] but this like. This was just absolutely clicked from, from the very beginning. And I was enthralled the whole way that I was shocked when I saw rrr, cuz I was like, this is the only thing that could possibly give everything everywhere all at once or run for its money in terms of best action sequences because mm-hmm and I, I, I don't even wanna say, which is better.

[01:20:20] They're completely different approaches. Yeah. They're both absolutely top tier. Excellent. Why, why, what did you like about it? 

[01:20:28] Sean: Um, I mean, I always enjoy a multiverse story. Like it's one of those sci-fi like tropes that and like time travel that I, that I usually enjoy even when it's not very good. Um, but, uh, so I was anticipating it for that reason.

[01:20:46] Michelle EO is great. Um, so I was really kind of excited about potentially seeing it. My wife was really into it, so we once saw it, I think, on the opening weekend and. I mean, I [01:21:00] enjoy it lean into the potential absurdity, you know, the, uh, or the potential for absurdity. The, they say, well, in a, in a multiverse and an infinite multiverse, there could be, you know, all of these potential things could potentially happen.

[01:21:20] Uh, anything could happen. And so they said, sure, okay, let's do that. Let's do anything could happen. We'll do lots of stuff. That's pretty grounded and makes sense. We'll do some very silly things, uh, raccoon tooi, uh, or whatever it was. However you said it. However they said it Raco I think 

[01:21:37] Nicole: RA Coco. 

[01:21:39] Sean: Uh, like the fact that it's like, oh, well, your Arding of something is that, that there's a universe where that's true, you know, hot dog fingers, stuff like that.

[01:21:51] Um, the, the, the universe where life doesn't exist, but their consciousness exists in rocks. Um, [01:22:00] uh, which I had seen something about how those were supposed to have like voice over dialogue, and then they decided to have just the, um, the text, um, overlay instead, uh, those were delightful like it's, um, or the subtitle text, I guess, uh, It was it, it touches on like the sort of stuff that I do enjoy about those kinds of stories, uh, while also being doing a really good job of staying grounded in it's a story about familial relationships.

[01:22:35] It's a story about the choices that you make and. Like, I think it did do, I think it did a good job of like going to that place where there, they get to see the main character gets to see a version of herself. That's like an, I, you know, a potentially ideal version of herself, um, where [01:23:00] she had a better life without making a certain decision.

[01:23:04] And it didn't then have like a, you know, sometimes they do that and then they have like a, oh, but really like, there's a secret, like bad side to it. It was just like, no, you probably would've had a better life. If you'd made this other decision in, by a certain measure, you wouldn't have had this one thing.

[01:23:22] Uh, you know, everybody would've been better off in a certain, in a certain situation. Um, and it like just. I, it didn't undercut that in a way that a lot of those ways that this, those stories are approached does, and it stayed with that. You know, what she loses in that, um, is something that does really matter to her and, um, helps reinforce for her how much, how much it does.

[01:23:57] Um, so I [01:24:00] think that it's, uh, it, man, it manages to, to move through that while being like super fun to watch, uh, again, a, another movie with wonderful performances from everybody and yes. 

[01:24:13] Nicole: And give Michelle yo and Oscar. Yeah. 

[01:24:16] Sean: Give her all of them. Um, but, and, and the Stephanie. Sue, I don't know how to pronounce that name.

[01:24:23] Sue, I think, uh, she's delightful. Like I've seen her, well, she was in this and I've seen her pop up in a couple places, I think mostly in, uh, I've seen her the most in, well, she, she had that small role in sh she, and then, uh, she's also in the, in Aquafina's show, Aquafina's Nora from Queens, she plays, she plays, she plays a friend of grandma's.

[01:24:49] She plays an old lady for the most part in that movie. Oh. Um, because, or in that show, because she's, she's first introduced in flashbacks. Uh, and so she plays the young version of the char of [01:25:00] the character. And then when they introduce, and then, then when they bring in the older version of that character, it's just her in like, not very, like, she's basically just in a white wig, um, and like a little bit of makeup, but she just ends up playing a.

[01:25:14] A friend of grandma. And she's very funny on that as well. And she's very good on that. And, uh, it's uh, um, yeah, I think it's just, it's, it's just a, especially because the multiverse, the concept of the multiverse is very much of the moment right now. Like not just Marvel things of which, you know, we now have at this 0.2 Marvel multiverse movies, and they're gonna lean into more multiverse stuff.

[01:25:44] I'm sure. Uh, 

[01:25:46] Nicole: we've got shows and stuff too. Like they're really like, 

[01:25:50] Sean: oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that, uh, what if show that 

[01:25:53] Nicole: they did? Yeah. Isn't, I mean, 

[01:25:55] Sean: I haven't watched it, but, um, but, uh, yeah, they [01:26:00] have, they, they, they're kind of like that's out there, but then there's also just in terms of like cultural that guys, the people don't shut up about the Mandela effect and people have, there was resist, you know, and usually one of the explanations is you've shifted to another universe where it's misspelled, where it's spelled differently.

[01:26:17] Nicole: Instead of it was fun with the Baren Stein bears thing, like 10 years ago, like it was fun. Be like, oh haha, another universe where it's Baron, Stein, bears, whatever, you know, but like it's like now people are take it way too serious. There's too much of it. And I, and most. I love this. Um, I like a lot of the Marvel multiverse stuff, you know?

[01:26:40] Yeah. I liked, um, into the spider verse, I liked low key. 

[01:26:44] Sean: Oh, I like getting another one of those. 

[01:26:46] Nicole: I mean, which I'm excited. I love low key. Uh, but it's like, it also gets really exhausting. Mm-hmm for me. And a lot of that stuff does not feel as emotionally [01:27:00] grounded at all as, as this. No, it's like the multiverse exists because it's a way to cram more characters and scenarios yeah.

[01:27:09] Into movies. And that's not why it was in this. It's like, it's, I feel like it's motivated. The Marvel stuff just feels very like a, a crass commercial calculation basically. And that's the main motivation for why that's everywhere and how it's treated from one work to another. Like, it's, it's treated really well in some of them.

[01:27:28] I'm not saying people don't ever do good stuff with it, but it's like, it kind of seems like. A decision was made at a series of meetings by executives that like, oh, we're gonna do this because mm-hmm X, Y, Z. Not necessarily because it's gonna serve each of these individual stories or anything like that.

[01:27:45] Right. But, you know, it allows us to have like, I don't know, um, miles, Morales, Thor, someday, or whatever, but hopefully less racist than it was in the comics. From what I've heard. I haven't read any of this shit. This is 

[01:27:57] Sean: just what I've thought. Oh yeah. I saw somebody talking about [01:28:00] that. That kind 

[01:28:01] Nicole: was like, Ooh.

[01:28:01] I was like, oh, cause at first I'm like, yeah, I wanna see miles Morales, Thor. And then I was like, oh, what? 

[01:28:08] Sean: Yeah. 

[01:28:09] Nicole: Which is what, 

[01:28:12] Sean: why I saw a couple panels. I know why 

[01:28:14] Nicole: racism, but like, but this, um, This day we're using the multiverse really good effect. And it didn't do the thing that my husband complains about a lot where the stakes start to feel non-existent to him.

[01:28:30] Cuz it's too easy to just like, oh, well we're gonna go to this other one. And then we snap our fingers and then everything's okay. And in some Marvel or other mm-hmm , uh, stuff that deals with like time travel and multiverses and things like that. Sometimes it can, uh, you lose stakes with the pipes, you lose the stakes.

[01:28:49] And that's not the case here at all in part because the stakes are specifically about stuff happening, uh, within the multiverse that will be, you know, [01:29:00] correct. Ally destabilizing. So it's, it's 

[01:29:03] Sean: easy for, I explain that badly. No, no, you did fine. You know what I mean though? You know? No, no. That's why I'm saying you did fine.

[01:29:09] Uh, I think it's, um, I think one of the things that it does really well is when you hand, when, when you bring in the multiverse or when you bring in time travel as a storytelling device, like, I mean, there, there's a couple ways to use both of 'em that are fine, but when you're using it as a storytelling device, like one of the most useful things for it is, you know, it's a way to explore the road, not traveled and like people's choices.

[01:29:39] Yeah. And this is what this is about. That's what this is about. This is about the choices you make, like the little choice. And I think the great thing about this is that thematically. the, the film is about a, a relatively speaking small problem between family members, between human beings. [01:30:00] And, and the thing is it's taught, it's using the multiverse and saying like little things make big changes in the multiverse.

[01:30:06] Yeah. Like there's diff the hugely different universe because you made one slightly different decision, you know? And I think that's, um, that's really sort of what can be so great about that as a storytelling device, you know? Yes. In a lot of the, the big budget, blockbuster things, it's a little bit more about like, Hey, let's try to do like, just different versions of the same, you know, we wanna see different versions of the same thing, or we wanna see, we wanna be able to bring in, you know, uh, a different characters, like the, which is mostly what.

[01:30:46] Really mostly what, like the Dr. Strange one and the Spiderman and the, and the, and the Spiderman, no way home, uh, and, uh, Spiderman like into the [01:31:00] spider verse. And, you know, when into the spider verse two comes out, like, they're really, like, they they're like, we want to have fun with what, if a character's different?

[01:31:07] You know, what if there's an alligator low key, uh, or a crocodile low key. I don't remember if it's an alligator or crocodile, like, and those are fun. And then, and that's really, you know, it 

[01:31:18] Nicole: like, it's just like into the spider verse was so refreshing when it came out. But what is troubling is it's like, wow.

[01:31:28] Into the spider verse was really great. Let's do a kind of shitier version of that a lot and not do many other things. I'm not saying they're not doing other things, but it's just kind of. Enough. Like, I, I love into the spider verse. I, I love the first lowkey series. I'll watch the second lowkey series, but I might be more likely to watch more Marvel stuff than I do if I didn't feel like it was all multiverse and not bringing more into it, it seems like it's diminishing returns to me as somebody who hasn't watched [01:32:00] half the movies you just talked about.

[01:32:01] So, you know, it might take my opinion with a grain of salt. It's just, 

[01:32:04] Sean: yeah. I mean, they're, they're leaning into some of that stuff with a few of their, with a few of their franchises and I think it's gonna get, uh, tiresome or it, it has gotten tiresome for some folks already, which is, you know, completely reasonable reaction to that.

[01:32:20] Um, I think that the, yeah, I mean, I think that the, the, the stories and the characters are. Uh, can be fun and interesting, but the truth is, is like not to talk too much about Marvel stuff while we're talking about yeah. This movie, but like, it's not either of our number, none 

[01:32:41] Nicole: of these films. No, no, no, none of these top 

[01:32:43] Sean: five at all, but, but, but it is the topic, you know, it is, it is, it is playing in the same playground.

[01:32:49] And I think the thing is, is that, you know, the Marvel films have now become a lot more. And I think you and I talked about may have talked about this before. [01:33:00] There are a lot more for people like me now who are like, I have like a deep, like, even from stuff that I haven't read and I've read a lot of it.

[01:33:08] Um, you know, I'll just like Wikipedia, like skimming, like, you know, a lot of it is for like, somebody like me, who's like, oh, they're doing this. Or, oh, they're referencing that. Not as sort of widely accessible, it's a lot more for their, like, we've got our, we've got our like audience of. Marvel people who wanna watch all the Marvel stuff.

[01:33:28] Uh, and we've got our audience of people. Who've read a lot of the Marvel stuff. And we probably have a little bit of other people too, who are curious and interested, but they're not as concerned about selling to those people. So they're gonna lean harder into like the fan stuff. Um, and I do think that that hurts the storytelling.

[01:33:48] Like I do think that both no way home and the doctor strange multiverse madness are pretty low, probably in the end on my, uh, on my [01:34:00] sort of the films that the films that come out of that, out of that, uh, group that I enjoy, like, I just felt like the storytelling wasn't really there. I appreciated what they were doing for sort of larger story arcs and stuff, but they're also hitting the they're also hitting the saturation point where comic book movies are now becoming like reading comic books.

[01:34:22] Where you kind of do have to know what everything else is to really enjoy it. And you do kind of have to have watched, you know, in, in the comic books, now you have to have read like tons of different things or cross across a bunch of different things to really get everything that's going on in any one story, which is a pain in the ass.

[01:34:41] Um, 

[01:34:42] Nicole: and I mean, it's okay if you don't get everything, like I watched, uh, Ragner rock with directors commentary last week. Mm-hmm , which helped me see, like, for example, like all sorts of references in that film that I didn't get. Cuz it's too like other Marvel stuff. [01:35:00] Yeah. And it's all there, but you don't have to get that to be able to watch that film.

[01:35:03] You don't even have to have seen the other Thor movies or any of the Avengers movies. No. To like, even though tons of stuff that happens in other Marvel films plays out in Thor, Ragner rock or is referenced in Thor, Ragner rock. So it's deeply embedded in all that. And I would imagine. You know, if you're getting all the references and all the little things in the backgrounds, it's like, oh, it's that character?

[01:35:25] Oh, it's that weapon. Oh, that this character's using this other character's weapon. And that, you know, that like, it's, it's probably really gratifying and fun. There's tons of fan servicey stuff in it, but it also succeeds as a complete story yeah. In and of itself. And I'm not making a role that films have to like, it's fine.

[01:35:42] If there's. Stuff that exists primarily is connective tissue between other stories that's primarily for Marvel fans. And they're gonna appreciate that stuff. Like I'm not even saying that's bad or anything like that. No, it's just not for me. 

[01:35:55] Sean: Exactly, exactly. And I think we're, I think we're hitting that point with those [01:36:00] more and more.

[01:36:00] And I think, I think Marvel knows that and honestly is like, we're fine with that. We have enough people for that, uh, and to sustain ourselves for that. Um, and, and enough other 

[01:36:10] Nicole: people will watch it. I think you're right. Yeah. That they're not necessarily aiming at what the demographic that's actually gonna end up making up the majority of their audience.

[01:36:18] I would assume most people who see these films and shows don't actually have this depth of knowledge, I'm sure a ton of them do. I'm not saying it's not yeah. A sizeable minority. Maybe it's like 40, 60 or something even, but like. Most people who watch these films, they don't have that depth of knowledge.

[01:36:35] It's just because superhero form films have become the dominant form of entertainment. So yeah, people see it, cuz it's the big new movie that's out. And most people in this country have probably seen at least some of the Marvel films you'll be able to like watch the fucking movie. You might not appreciate or enjoy some of the stuff.

[01:36:52] That's the most potentially gratifying stuff in it, but mm-hmm, , you're not gonna be like, I can't follow 

[01:36:59] Sean: [01:37:00] this. I assume. Exactly. And I think that, and I think that, you know, and what, what they're doing with the multiverse stuff, I mean, I think they saw into the spider verse and they were like, and, and it's just out there, you know, people are writing stories about it.

[01:37:14] People are talking about it. It's something that people, 

[01:37:16] Nicole: yeah. We're either gonna escape to Mars or we're gonna escape to another fucking, you know, entire universe. Those are seem to be people's options right now. Cuz people have largely thrown up their hands about making the earth were unlivable. for much longer.

[01:37:30] So people are just fantasizing about their escape patches. Yeah. 

[01:37:33] Sean: I think is a big part of it. And so, and so, yeah. And so this film is, is, is, is coming in there with that, but not in, uh, you know, everything everywhere all at once is, is coming in there with that. But I think it's coming not from like, oh, Marvel and everybody.

[01:37:51] And you know, there's these big tent poles that are doing multiverse things. I think it's just like people are on the multiverse, uh, thing. I think, I think it's just people [01:38:00] kind of wish they could go back and change certain, you know, you can see you go, you just look at the last, you know, couple decades.

[01:38:09] And you're like, you know, if this one thing was different, I wonder how the world would be different. You know, if we, one of course choice was made differently because I think a lot of people are just unhappy with, regardless of which side of what. Conversation, we're on, I think the majority of people are unhappy with the way that the world is.

[01:38:31] Yeah. Um, and you know, and, and, and people who disagree wildly about fundamental concepts are both unhappy with the way that the world is right now. Um, yeah. And I think 

[01:38:43] Nicole: it's not really serving that many people very well. No. And even the people it is serving well, relatively speaking are still probably unhappy because those people always want more.

[01:38:53] Sean: Yeah. So, yeah. So where's that. So I think this really speaks to a lot of that. [01:39:00] 

[01:39:01] Nicole: Yeah. And it's, um,

[01:39:07] there's a lot in this that's that connects to other films we've talked about, like maybe most obviously, um, turning, seeing red, turning red, whatever that movie turning red, turning, turning red, right. I mean, you're talking about. I mean SP specifically Asian families mm-hmm and, um, parent child relationships and conflicts.

[01:39:31] Right. That are kind of both very specific, but it's another example of like getting to the universal through the specific, like I know is certainly I'm sure both of those films, uh, might resonate differently. You know, if you're Asian, if you're the child of immigrants, um, things that are not my case mm-hmm and.

[01:39:55] But it's still relevant, you know? Yeah. Even if it's not like, as, um, [01:40:00] specifically exactly your experience, there are still definitely elements of it that resonate with your experience with, with my experience I've related. Yeah. Heavily to both of these movies. And I think it's nice that we are getting nice is a bad word for it.

[01:40:16] I think it is good that we are getting some of these stories, um, that are more nuanced and thorny in various ways coming out now. Yeah. 

[01:40:28] Sean: Yeah. I, I, I think it's great. And I think as you said, the, like the, the, you know, telling a universal story by telling something very personal and specific, uh, I think that's something that we're in a nice sort of.

[01:40:44] Space right now where we're seeing a little bit more of that. Uh, as opposed to people trying really hard to tell like, well, I'm trying to tell a universal story, blah, blah, blah. And they're trying, they make things super bland and empty because, you know, if you make it too specific, then people [01:41:00] can't relate to it.

[01:41:00] No, you, you make it more specific. Yeah. And people, and then peop and then you have detail and people relate to the, they don't relate to all the details cuz they missed some of them. Like I missed I'm sure I missed a million things in both these movies that are specific details. Sure. Um, like, but I related to plenty of, of the relationships and you, you know, I also, I think we had a text conversation at one point about people, not people, people having a real hard time with Michelle EOS character in this film.

[01:41:31] And I was like, okay, but like, yeah, she's unpleasant. And, and you know, I think. I think we, we can both relate to, um, relate to family members who can be blunt or unpleasant, or 

[01:41:48] Nicole: sometimes we are those family members, 

[01:41:50] Sean: maybe. Exactly. I wasn't, I wasn't gonna say it, but I was gonna say, Nicole, you're you're you're the Michelle yo.

[01:41:57] Uh, but, uh, but I think [01:42:00] that like also, you know, people who say, I, you know, I can't relate to the why is she like that? Or she's terrible, blah, blah, blah, blah. 

[01:42:07] Nicole: I'm like, okay, have they stepped side? She's a real person. Yeah. She's 

[01:42:10] Sean: a real person's. And also she's a good person. And also I'm like, okay, but like, have you ever listened to anybody else talk about their, about their parents?

[01:42:18] Like anybody who doesn't look like you? Because when I saw that and she was talking, I was like, you know, this reminds me of, you know, not anything specific, but like the general like idea behind when like back in the nineties, when I was watching, like on comedy central, like Michelle EO, like not Michelle Yeo.

[01:42:38] Fixated Michelle, you what's her name? Um, uh, Margaret Cho, cause start with an, um, 

[01:42:43] Nicole: like a Margaret Cho who was, who was in my, uh, number five pick fire island. 

[01:42:47] Sean: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I saw it in the trailer. Um, she's so good in it. She's great. She's great. She's, she's wonderful in, in everything I've seen her in, but I remember back in the late nineties or early two thousands, like watching, like she'd have like a half hour standup thing on, [01:43:00] on comedy central that they repeated a lot.

[01:43:03] And I watch it a bunch, cuz I watched a bunch of standup back then and like, I was like, what? I remember watching this. I was like, oh, this kind of reminds me of like the way that she would joke about her parents. And so I was like, okay. So like this is kind of interrelate, like you know that other, that you know, experience other than my own.

[01:43:23] Um, and I'm just like, you need to, you need, I think when people are look at this and they, and they say, oh, I don't get it or I can't relate. Or you know, why is she so mean? I'm like, you need to listen to other people's stories. You need to listen to other people, tell their stories and then you will recognize what this is.

[01:43:42] Nicole: Um, also I'm sure they've got people in their fucking families who. I'm sure they did, or fucking unpleasant people maybe in different ways. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's similar to what we were talking about before, about gratuitous sex and violence. And like, what does that mean? And people kind of [01:44:00] wanting films to come with instructions.

[01:44:03] Very, very clear instructions of how you are supposed to interpret every single thing that you might see or hear yeah. Over the course of the film and whether it's good or bad. 

[01:44:12] Sean: Yeah. I think it's much more valuable to like, when people say like, oh, well, you know, she's mean or blah, blah, blah. It's like, you need to learn to talk to, to, to listen to other people's stories you need to, you need to really look at why are you missing that?

[01:44:28] And it's the same with turning red too. It's like, why are you missing that? Not that you can't relate to it, but why can't you relate to it? And you need to fix that about yourself. 

[01:44:38] Nicole: Yeah. And honestly, um, One of, it's kind of interesting. I was just thinking about turning red and everything all at once.

[01:44:46] Everything everywhere, all at once before you brought it back to turning red, because of a main difference between these two films that do touch on some of some shared themes, which is that one of them's for kids. And one of 'em is for adults mm-hmm and thus they [01:45:00] handle their themes differently. Um, licorice pizza is a movie for adults it's rated.

[01:45:06] Yeah. If that doesn't mean young people won't see it. And I'm not, I don't wanna pretend that or whatever, but it's also it's it's it is not being marketed to kids. It is not being marketed to teenagers. It is being marketed to art house, adult fucking audiences who should be able to see a movie. And then have a discussion about the themes that isn't reduced to like, well, this film didn't give me an instruction guide to how I was supposed to interpret it, which is yeah.

[01:45:32] Brings us back to actually our shared film in the number three position, which is so much of what I love so much about crimes of the future is it's not telling you how you're supposed to feel about stuff, which is, I think part of why it's just so disorienting mm-hmm to certain audiences and they were just unable to find their way into it at all.

[01:45:54] I guess if you're more horrified than I am by some of the themes in it, for [01:46:00] example, like I'm not, I'm not horrified by people cutting each other up for pleasure, you know, like, I'm not, that's not gonna like, yeah. Make me clutch my pearls. Um, I'm not. Gonna Pearl clutch about the idea of people otherwise modifying their bodies.

[01:46:16] Mm-hmm , you know, I'm not, none of, I'm not, I'm clearly not gonna Pearl clutch about surgery either as you know, speaking of the operation. Uh, but I think like some people the only, and it's like you said earlier about if all you have is hammer, everything's a nail. I think you said that, you know, mm-hmm, for a lot of people watching this, they're not able, I'm guessing to see it as anything, but a horror movie, cuz they're like, this is so scary.

[01:46:39] This is a future where people are choosing to do DIY operations on themselves. This is horrifying. And the film's perspective isn't really that it's horrifying. The film's perspective is that it's interesting. I think, and it's a film that is interested in a lot of the themes and that's why I called it.

[01:46:56] Like sci-fi Newar because it's a very, Newar kind of [01:47:00] setup where. There aren't exactly good guys and bad guys. There are people who do good things and people who do bad things, but none of the characters are really like, here's the hero to root for. 

[01:47:12] Sean: Yeah. At all. All. I mean, I, I would say that, yeah, that, uh, what's his name?

[01:47:18] Um, Vigo Mors character Vigo Mortenson's character is very much a, not to spoil anything for anybody, but I will say that because of certain revelations that happen about halfway through the film, he's definitely would fall under the, um, you know, your standard definition of a, of a noir, uh, right. Hero.

[01:47:40] Yeah. Like 

[01:47:41] Nicole: that completely. Yeah. Yeah. I, I completely agree. Um, and in general, the way that he's the protagonist and at various points there, antagonists and stuff, but it's not so much about individual people who are heroes and villains and. [01:48:00] Again, the film is not telling you what to think. I, because I follow Dave Kronenberg and there's evidence in the film as well.

[01:48:07] You know, I have some guesses about what his opinions are yeah. On some of the material. And I think he's trying to put forth some ideas that are actually useful as we move into the future for us all to think about and consider. And I think it's sad 

[01:48:22] Sean: that eat toxic waste. What's that eat toxic waste. Eat it.

[01:48:27] Yeah. Eat the toxic waste. 

[01:48:29] Nicole: I'm hopeless. Eat industrial waste, eat industrial waste. Get on it. I mean, otherwise we're gonna have to like, you know, figure out how to jump dimensions in the multiverse or whatever, because God knows Elon Musk. Isn't getting us to Mars. So, you know, start, we gotta start. We, we need something.

[01:48:47] I David, Cronenberg's the only one with a plan, honestly. I'm all for the crimes of the future platform. Let's do it. Great. I'm not even kidding. Grow kidding. Grow your 

[01:48:57] Sean: own new organs. 

[01:48:59] Nicole: Do it [01:49:00] 

[01:49:01] Sean: all right. Everybody, the potential, some boys. All right. Everybody. 

[01:49:07] Nicole: They do say in crimes, in the future, that part of what makes him an artist is arguably that his will to continue to grow more organs is a piece of why he does.

[01:49:17] Sean: Yeah. It was, it was interesting when they had that conversation. Is it really art? Cuz like, you're just, I loved it. Like yeah. So fucking 

[01:49:23] Nicole: funny. It's it's it's a funny movie guys. It's crimes of the future is fucking funny. Like I laughed quite a few times at it. It's I it's, it is balm for my soul, 

[01:49:35] Sean: honestly.

[01:49:35] Yeah. And crimes of the future. 

[01:49:38] Nicole: Well we should God bless David. Yeah, we should. So thank you David. Kronenberg for thank you David Kronenberg of everything. Please keep Ming movies. I needed this one this year. So thank you for that. Mm-hmm thank you to the Daniels. Um, thank you to T or Ty west. Thank you to Joel Kim [01:50:00] booster as well as I also wanted to thank Andrew on cuz I think I said fire Ireland was Joel Kim booster's film and he does star in it and he did write it, but he did not direct it.

[01:50:11] Uh, Andrew on directed it. And also thank you to SS Roger Muley, who directed R R R thank you to w Camal bell for your excellent documentary and other fine works. What, who did I forget? I'm not gonna thank Matt Reeves, but you can, if you want. 

[01:50:29] Sean: Thanks Matt Reeves. Thank you. Thank you. 

[01:50:32] Nicole: Whoever directed, turning red.

[01:50:34] I don't remember. 

[01:50:35] Sean: I was just, I was just pulling it back up. I just, I just like closed my thing that showed it and she, uh, so, so thank you, Domi. She, and thank 

[01:50:46] Nicole: you, David Coverdale 

[01:50:48] Sean: and David Jones, always, 

[01:50:49] Nicole: which no reason. No reason. No reason. It's just subscribe to our Patreon. You'll know the reason 

[01:50:55] Sean: you'll probably, yeah, you gotta have to, you gotta have to watch the video to other than the [01:51:00] obvious reasons we would.

[01:51:01] Thank David Coverdale. 

[01:51:02] Nicole: Yeah. I mean, it's obvious. And also, um, when you finish listening to this podcast, go, go donate to an abortion fund and, or go volunteer at an abortion fund. Abor. Yeah. Abort, some babies don't do that. Share some information about how BA this is serious. Actually share some information about how babies can be AB not babies.

[01:51:25] How fucking fetus is. Can be aborted let's let's share that fucking information. There's a lot of waste and let's, let's keep talking about it. Um, whether it's relevant to the fucking celluloid mirror or not, don't give a shit. No, it's the hell we're living 

[01:51:38] Sean: in. And it's, it's, it's REL it's, it's relevant.

[01:51:41] It's relevant to the life. Doesn't have to be relevant, you know? So it doesn't, 

[01:51:46] Nicole: it's relevant to us. It's relevant to us and we're the ones fucking talking. 

[01:51:49] Sean: So go. Exactly. We're very pro-abortion so we are very 

[01:51:53] Nicole: pro-abortion no problem saying that abortion. No, I know you are. Hey, I remember having conversation with you about it actually [01:52:00] fairly early in our friendship, where we were on a flight and I think it was early in the morning and you were talking about like, I don't give a shit.

[01:52:06] What the reason is, whatever reason it's great. Abortion is the best. I don't like it when people say like, oh, I'm against abortion, but I'm in favor of no I'm for abortion. Abortion's great. And I was like, I agree. I also think abortion's great. 

[01:52:18] Sean: have as, have as many as you want. Um, yeah. All right. Actually, have a better, have a better day, 

[01:52:28] Nicole: have a better day.

[01:52:30] Don't get COVID help people get abortions. 

[01:52:34] Sean: Talk to you soon. We'll talk to you soon. We'll be back with a regular episode in two weeks. We'll 

[01:52:38] Nicole: be back with a real soon. Yeah. Two weeks. Two weeks. Yay. 

[01:52:41] Sean: Bye. Yeah. Two in two weeks. Bye.

[01:52:54] Nicole: The celluloid mirror is a 4MileCircus production hosted by Nicole Solomon. That's me [01:53:00] and Sean Manion. Our theme music is Twisted by Kevin McLeod. You can hear more from Kevin McLeod at incompetech.filmmusic.io. Please take a few minutes to rate and review the celluloid mirror on your podcast platform of choice. It really helps other people discover the show. And if you have questions or comments about what you heard on the show or suggestions for future episodes, please email usa at info@4milecircus.com or seek us out on social media. We are @4milecircus on Twitter and Instagram. 

[01:53:38] Want more celluloid mirror and more from me and Sean? Well, you can join our patreon at patreon.com/4milecircus, where you will get early access to episodes of the celluloid mirror as well as uncut video of our recording sessions, uh, featuring stuff that doesn't make it to the final episodes and access to our [01:54:00] discord server. Patreon only events. And so very much more to learn more about everything we do visit us 4milecircus.com.

[01:54:19] Movie Clips: I ended up in that hall of mirrors. There was another girl. She looked like me. Exactly like me.

[01:54:32] Can you come with me in my dreams? 

[01:54:38] That'll do pig.

[01:54:39] What happens when the story dies and the evil is set free?

[01:54:55] I have to [01:55:00] return some video tape.